realityman
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« on: June 20, 2008, 10:00:26 AM » |
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A fitting example of the "ideals" and mentality Israel has to deal with everyday in the Middle-East... Will the "ceasefire" last or lead to a meaningful, lasting, long-term peace?? It would seem doubtful with "ideals" like this being expressed by Palestinian Terror group leaders/spokesmen.Terrorists boast truce 'victory for resistance'Disclose cease-fire in Gaza will be used to rearm, prepare for battleJune 20, 2008 By Aaron Klein © 2008 WorldNetDaily The Gaza cease-fire agreed to yesterday by Hamas and Israel is a "victory" for Palestinian "resistance" and will be used by local terrorist groups to rearm and prepare for battle against the Jewish state, top Gaza-based terror leaders told WND. "We are humiliating the Israelis. They kept threatening to make a huge operation in Gaza, but they were the ones who begged us to go into the cease-fire," said Muhammad Abdel-Al, a leader and spokesman for the Hamas-allied, Gaza-based Popular Resistance Committees terror group. Along with Hamas, the Committees took responsibility for firing nearly 30 mortars and rockets from Gaza into nearby Jewish communities Wednesday, lightly injuring one Israeli woman just hours before the truce went into effect. "[The rocket attacks] prove we are not going into this cease-fire from a weak point but from a point of force and power," Abdel-Al said. Abu Abdullah, considered one of the most important operational members of Hamas' so-called military wing, told WND his group will use the truce to rearm itself."The hudna (temporary truce) will be used for more training, arming. ... We don't have any intention to stop from bringing in weapons from the Sinai into Gaza," said Abdullah. He called the cease-fire "one more sign of the collapse of the Israeli army, that this big Israeli army with the so-called best air force in the world didn't succeed to stop the rockets, and they accepted the truce." The term "hudna," dates back to Islam's founding in the 7th century, when Muhammad declared a 10-year hudna with the tribe that controlled Mecca. Later, after rearming, Muhammad attacked the tribe, claiming it had broken the truce. In 1994, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat invoked Muhammad's hudna when he justified the launch of the second intifada during the Oslo peace process. The Washington Institute for Near East Policy noted in 2003 that Hamas had agreed to 10 cease-fires in the previous decade and returned freshly armed after each one."It is important to note," the institute said, "that all cease-fire offers have been presented at a time when Hamas needed a moment to step back and regroup after an organizationally exhausting confrontation with a more powerful foe (either Israel or the PA)."Israeli security officials have warned in briefings to the Knesset that Hamas would use the truce to rearm itself and strengthen its forces for an ultimate Israeli military incursion into Gaza. The officials said more Israeli troops would likely die fighting in Gaza because of the off-time Hamas is likely to use to prepare itself for battle. The Gaza cease-fire officially went into effect at 6 a.m. Jerusalem time yesterday. Israel has said it will hold off all military operations in Gaza in exchange for a complete cessation of Palestinian rocket attacks and violence.Hamas, for its part, reportedly instructed its members to refrain from carrying out any attacks. If the truce holds through the weekend, Israel said it would ease its blockade of Gaza by allowing a larger number of shipments to enter and may open border crossings closed in recent months. In a statement issued as the truce went into effect, Hamas' military wing warned Israel the cease-fire was "not in anyway a free gift" and said it is ready to resume attacks: "[Hamas'] Qassam Brigades is fully ready to launch a military strike that would shake the Zionist entity if they did not abide by all the items of the calm deal and the Zionist enemy would be responsible for any foolish act they may commit," the statement said. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=67594 Interesting to learn of the ""one more sign of the collapse of the Israeli army"... and that the Hamas/Terror groups are " humiliating the Israelis"... and the Israel apparently "begged" the terror groups to go into a ceasefire.... lol  ... Humorous in a way, but sad and telling in another way as this is usually how these situations are portrayed to the Palestinian people. Seems almost everytime Israel gives the Palestinians an "opportunity" to demonstrate they're willingness and ability to live as peaceful neighbors, the Palestinian side portrays it as a "victory" for Palestinian "resistance" (attempting to justify to their people their suicide bombings and missle attacks)... This ceasefire, previous easing of restrictions, the Gaza withdrawal, etc, EACH TIME the terrorist portray this as Israeli weakness,.. a weakness they then use to attempt to gain popular support for more violence against Israel...... Will it be different this time?? While we might all hope so, I see little evidence leading me to believe so...so far |
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« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 10:13:58 AM by realityman »
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mdma
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2008, 10:08:36 AM » |
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Israel needs one shit hole less right before mission "Ahmidininuke" take a place.
Some Palestinians already got nostalgic about old fashioned way of re-arming though underground tunnels and will continue to use those even though the area is open for export.
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Cryptomaniac
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2008, 02:19:03 PM » |
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Interesting to learn of the ""one more sign of the collapse of the Israeli army"... and that the Hamas/Terror groups are " humiliating the Israelis"... and the Israel apparently "begged" the terror groups to go into a ceasefire.... lol ... Humorous in a way, but sad and telling in another way as this is usually how these situations are portrayed to the Palestinian people. Seems almost everytime Israel gives the Palestinians an "opportunity" to demonstrate they're willingness and ability to live as peaceful neighbors, the Palestinian side portrays it as a "victory" for Palestinian "resistance" (attempting to justify to their people their suicide bombings and missle attacks)... This ceasefire, previous easing of restrictions, the Gaza withdrawal, etc, EACH TIME the terrorist portray this as Israeli weakness,.. a weakness they then use to attempt to gain popular support for more violence against Israel...... Will it be different this time?? While we might all hope so, I see little evidence leading me to believe so...so far Cease-fires serve Israel in no way tactically, it is purely a strategic (public relations) issue for Israel to accept because to decline a cease fire brings the cries of the International Community. This is why I have reluctantly taken the position that Israel should NEVER accept a cease-fire from Hamas unless that cease-fire serves Israel's larger strategic objective of eliminating Hamas once and for all. The cease-fires are used to regroup, resupply, and rearm. We have seen a massive increase in violence in Afghanistan after the Pakistani's decided on a cease-fire with Taliban militants in their own country. This is a tried and true tactic for militant groups. They have to catch their breath more often than organized armies and without an air force or a navy, their difficulties to keep well-supplied are certainly amplified. I guess the world community hasn't quite caught on to this scheme by militant groups. Cease-fires are nothing more than time-outs. Militant groups are given a tremendous advantage when granted a cease-fire, and have no intention on making it permanent. |
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realityman
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2008, 02:45:51 PM » |
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Interesting to learn of the ""one more sign of the collapse of the Israeli army"... and that the Hamas/Terror groups are " humiliating the Israelis"... and the Israel apparently "begged" the terror groups to go into a ceasefire.... lol ... Humorous in a way, but sad and telling in another way as this is usually how these situations are portrayed to the Palestinian people. Seems almost everytime Israel gives the Palestinians an "opportunity" to demonstrate they're willingness and ability to live as peaceful neighbors, the Palestinian side portrays it as a "victory" for Palestinian "resistance" (attempting to justify to their people their suicide bombings and missle attacks)... This ceasefire, previous easing of restrictions, the Gaza withdrawal, etc, EACH TIME the terrorist portray this as Israeli weakness,.. a weakness they then use to attempt to gain popular support for more violence against Israel...... Will it be different this time?? While we might all hope so, I see little evidence leading me to believe so...so far . This is why I have reluctantly taken the position that Israel should NEVER accept a cease-fire from Hamas unless that cease-fire serves Israel's larger strategic objective of eliminating Hamas once and for all. The cease-fires are used to regroup, resupply, and rearm. We have seen a massive increase in violence in Afghanistan after the Pakistani's decided on a cease-fire with Taliban militants in their own country. This is a tried and true tactic for militant groups. They have to catch their breath more often than organized armies and without an air force or a navy, their difficulties to keep well-supplied are certainly amplified. I guess the world community hasn't quite caught on to this scheme by militant groups. Cease-fires are nothing more than time-outs. Militant groups are given a tremendous advantage when granted a cease-fire, and have no intention on making it permanent. That's exactly right  .... And you're also right in that the world community hasn't quite caught on.... Lesson and lesson has been given by the terrorists, and each time, so far, the result is the same. I suppose it never hurts to "hope" that "this time will be different", but I think it would be naive to believe so, without substantive evidence leading one to believe so... Substantive evidence I've yet to see. |
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Cryptomaniac
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2008, 03:23:05 PM » |
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I don't expect anyone to catch on any time soon either. It is a rotten predicament in which Israel finds itself. I wonder what would happen if Israel came out publically and stated, "no more cease-fires" and demanded that a long-term written cessation of hostilities was signed by Hamas in return for Israel's guarantee that it would not engage in offensive operations in Gaza. Then, part of that agreement would state that if Hamas attacks, Israel reserves the legal right and moral responsibility to erradicate Hamas from Gaza. Of course, such a military action would result in countless thousands of deaths, but it is really starting to become time to up the ante.
This has gone on long enough, and since Israel is the only side capable of initiating a major action, it is the only side that can cause sweeping changes. Otherwise, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah will continue to snap at Israel like a rabid Chihuahua.
It is getting old, incredibly frustrating, and the dog grows bolder and more violent with each attack. It is time to rear back and kick the Chihuahua. Of course the world will gasp with horror, and wonder how Israel could do such a thing. But after the little animal hobbles off to die in a ditch, the world will forget about it and we can get on with our lives.
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realityman
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2008, 10:42:21 AM » |
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I don't expect anyone to catch on any time soon either. It is a rotten predicament in which Israel finds itself. I wonder what would happen if Israel came out publically and stated, "no more cease-fires" and demanded that a long-term written cessation of hostilities was signed by Hamas in return for Israel's guarantee that it would not engage in offensive operations in Gaza. Then, part of that agreement would state that if Hamas attacks, Israel reserves the legal right and moral responsibility to erradicate Hamas from Gaza. Of course, such a military action would result in countless thousands of deaths, but it is really starting to become time to up the ante.
This has gone on long enough, and since Israel is the only side capable of initiating a major action, it is the only side that can cause sweeping changes. Otherwise, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah will continue to snap at Israel like a rabid Chihuahua.
It is getting old, incredibly frustrating, and the dog grows bolder and more violent with each attack. It is time to rear back and kick the Chihuahua. Of course the world will gasp with horror, and wonder how Israel could do such a thing. But after the little animal hobbles off to die in a ditch, the world will forget about it and we can get on with our lives.
YEP... this has gone on long enough... and there's no end in sight... There's a saying that goes something like... "You can't have lasting peace, until one side is beaten beyond it's ability to wage war".... This was certainly true with previous World Wars... BUT WAS NEVER TRUE with Israel and it's enemies... The "international community" has never allowed Israel to "finish the job"... to decisively defeat it's enemies... Instead of being allowed (by the world community) to beat the cr-p out of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the others, and have them begging for permenant surrender terms which would end it and mean the start of a new era, the response has always been "measured"... which ultimately allows the other side to re-arm, talk tough, and even claim victory out of obvious defeat.... It's almost as if the Palestinians/Arabs don't realize (or want to realize) that they've lost their wars and attempts to destroy Israel... While the Palestinian Arabs may WANT certain borders, a certain capital, a right of return, etc... they're not owed this. Had the Arab armies succeeded in destroying Israel in any of their previous attempts, they certainly wouldn't be giving Israel back '48, or 67 borders... or rights of return, a capital in Jerusalem, etc... THEY (the Arabs/Palestinians) LOST... yet their violent agenda pretends otherwise. As I've said many times on other topics, eventually Hamas (and the other terrorist groups) will have to be delt with directly and definitely... Either their agenda will change, or it will have to be changed for them... |
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 10:46:33 AM by realityman »
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2008, 12:12:38 PM » |
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Ok, but if Hamas is a terrorist group, why does Israel even negociate truces with them?
International relations?
Maybe. But since everybody knows that Hamas (or a rogue element of it) will break the truce in a matter of days, it won't change much.
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!)  |
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Cryptomaniac
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2008, 03:17:27 PM » |
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YEP... this has gone on long enough... and there's no end in sight...
There's a saying that goes something like... "You can't have lasting peace, until one side is beaten beyond it's ability to wage war"....
This was certainly true with previous World Wars... BUT WAS NEVER TRUE with Israel and it's enemies... The "international community" has never allowed Israel to "finish the job"... to decisively defeat it's enemies... Instead of being allowed (by the world community) to beat the cr-p out of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the others, and have them begging for permenant surrender terms which would end it and mean the start of a new era, the response has always been "measured"... which ultimately allows the other side to re-arm, talk tough, and even claim victory out of obvious defeat.... It's almost as if the Palestinians/Arabs don't realize (or want to realize) that they've lost their wars and attempts to destroy Israel... While the Palestinian Arabs may WANT certain borders, a certain capital, a right of return, etc... they're not owed this. Had the Arab armies succeeded in destroying Israel in any of their previous attempts, they certainly wouldn't be giving Israel back '48, or 67 borders... or rights of return, a capital in Jerusalem, etc... THEY (the Arabs/Palestinians) LOST... yet their violent agenda pretends otherwise.
As I've said many times on other topics, eventually Hamas (and the other terrorist groups) will have to be delt with directly and definitely... Either their agenda will change, or it will have to be changed for them...
Right on realityman, I think we see eye-to-eye on this topic. Hamas makes it easy on those of us who are realists. If you've ever read "On War" by Clausewitz (one of my all time favorite works), there is an interesting quote that you may find useful when debating: "The degree of force that must be used against the enemy depends on the scale of political demands on either side. . . . But they seldom are fully known. Since in war too small an effort can result not just in failure, but in positive harm, each side is driven to outdo the other, which sets up an interaction."When the " political demands" of Hamas include the erradication of Israel, Clausewitz in his timeless and infinite wisdom would certainly approve of an unrestricted action by the Israelis. The sooner the world realizes this, the sooner we can move on. |
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realityman
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2008, 03:23:45 PM » |
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Ok, but if Hamas is a terrorist group, why does Israel even negociate truces with them?
International relations?...
That's exactly right Fred... "international relations"... Because if Israel doesn't "play" truce when Hamas plays on world sympathies, Israel looks like the "bad guy" who doesn't want peace... And when Hamas is caught smuggling and stockpiling weapons and the truce eventually breaks, Hamas will find a way to try to blame Israel (and the Arabs, will of course, buy it)... As Cryptomaniac said so well: ...Cease-fires serve Israel in no way tactically, it is purely a strategic (public relations) issue for Israel to accept because to decline a cease fire brings the cries of the International Community.... And as the article I originally posted states and demonstrates quite clearly: Abu Abdullah, considered one of the most important operational members of Hamas' so-called military wing, told WND his group will use the truce to rearm itself."The hudna (temporary truce) will be used for more training, arming. ... We don't have any intention to stop from bringing in weapons from the Sinai into Gaza," said Abdullah......The Washington Institute for Near East Policy noted in 2003 that Hamas had agreed to 10 cease-fires in the previous decade and returned freshly armed after each one."It is important to note," the institute said, "that all cease-fire offers have been presented at a time when Hamas needed a moment to step back and regroup after an organizationally exhausting confrontation with a more powerful foe (either Israel or the PA)."... http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=67594 |
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 03:58:41 PM by realityman »
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Patton
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NObama '08
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2008, 04:00:31 PM » |
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Nice analysis Crypto.
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“Over the last 15 months, we’ve traveled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states? I think one left to go.”
No 2nd Pelosi/Reid/Obama Congress
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2008, 02:00:48 AM » |
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I think Israel will deal with the most dangerous threat first, and that will be Iran, not Gaza and Hamas. The clock is ticking for Iran and remains the same for Gaza.
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2008, 07:46:22 AM » |
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Truce already broken: Israel killed a senior Hamas commander in West Bank and Hamas responded by firing rockets from Gaza. I told you it won't be long... Now this is funny: the raid in the city is an "unjustified crime" but I don't believe it would threaten the Gaza truce As if there was still a truce somewhere. source |
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 07:55:17 AM by Fredledingue »
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Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!) |
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realityman
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« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2008, 08:05:34 AM » |
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Truce already broken: Israel killed a senior Hamas commander in West Bank and Hamas responded by firing rockets from Gaza. I told you it won't be long... Now this is funny: the raid in the city is an "unjustified crime" but I don't believe it would threaten the Gaza truce As if there was still a truce somewhere. Relative calm may hold a bit longer, who knows... I don't think many (myself included) thought it would last long... Israel killed militants in the WEST BANK... Note that the West Bank was not part of the ceasefire dealAnd why did Israel take this action?? The militants were named as 24-year-old Iad Hanfar, of Hamas, and the second as Taker Abu Rali, a senior Islamic Jihad militant. According to the IDF, Abu Rali was planning an attack on Israel. Troops discovered ammunition, explosives and rifles in his apartmenthttp://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/995738.htmlAnd as the article so clearly states: ...An Egyptian-brokered cease-fire agreement was struck between Israel and Hamas last week, but the deal extends to the Gaza Strip only, leaving the IDF free to operate in the West Bank.... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/995738.htmlAnd since Abbas/Fatah were clearly not policing their terrorists (as usual).. The IDF has to go in... and imagine what they found... "ammunition, explosives and rifles in his apartment"... Maybe having a cache of ammunition, explosives and rifles in an apartment is OK in your neighborhood (just teasing), but in most, it's not... As Abbas/Fatah was clearly not doing anything about it, that once again left the job to Israel. Meanwhile, we have Gaza militants firing Kassams at Israel again, in clear violation of the ceasefire: |
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 08:17:19 AM by realityman »
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Cass
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2008, 02:07:25 PM » |
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realityman, I'm playing "catch up" having been MIA for a week entertaining granddaughters during ones annual summer visit, but we in Sacramento, don't typically consider Joe Farah's "World Net Daily" a credible nor reliable source having experienced his destruction of the long running and historically valuable "Sacramento Union" until he was almost literally run out of town on a rail. But beside that point, a bit more up to date article from Haaretz on the cease fire issue. Who is really responsible for the continuation of rocket attacks? Is it Hamas from Gaza or are Fatah extremists going about the process to destroy the admitted very fragile cease fire? Hamas: Continued rocket fire by Fatah armed group harms Palestinian interests By Avi Isacharoff and Yuval Azoulay The Hamas government in the Gaza Strip lashed out at rival militants after two Qassam rockets were fired at southern Israel yesterday, causing no injuries but further straining the shaky truce between Israel and Hamas that went into effect last Thursday morning. In view of the continued rocket fire, Israel will keep the crossings into the Gaza Strip closed today, for the third straight day. The Fatah-affiliated group Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility for yesterday's rocket fire and demanded that the cease-fire be extended into the West Bank. The complete article is only the link and I've added comments by Paul Woodward, Editor of War In Contex that make additional and IMHO very valid points. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/996712.htmlEditor’s Comment —" Well, it’s safe to assume that we won’t be hearing any public appeals from Ehud Olmert, Tony Blair (he is still The Quartet’s star envoy, isn’t he?), George Bush, Condoleezza Rice, John McCain, or Barak Obama, calling on Mahmoud Abbas to reign in the Fatah militants. Neither will there be wider support for a ceasefire covering all the Palestinian occupied territories. I guess it’s because all the peace processors are such deep believers in true peace that they can only offer tepid support for a mere truce." http://warincontext.org/ |
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\\"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die.\\" Edward Kennedy, U.S.
Senator
The old lion of the Senate, though a lion in winter, has lived to do more for this nation than John or Bobby though
who knows what life would be like now had they lived.
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realityman
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2008, 03:09:14 PM » |
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...we in Sacramento, don't typically consider Joe Farah's "World Net Daily" a credible nor reliable source Well, that a "conservative" commentator/editor isn't popular in Sacramento, in California, the state which gave us Nancy Pelosi, doesn't really shock me. ... But that in itself, doesn't make his articles, or the articles written by others at "World Net Daily" invalid or factually incorrect. ... Who is really responsible for the continuation of rocket attacks? Is it
Hamas from Gaza or are Fatah extremists going about the process to destroy the admitted very fragile cease fire? ...
Every ceasefire has been basically the same story. The rockets/violence ultimately continue, but instead of Hamas proudly claiming responsibility for the attacks, the other groups take turns.... In my eyes, either the rockets and violence stop, or they don't... If they stop, we'll have a period of relative peace. If they don't, Israel will have to resume policing the terrorists... There have been several instances of rocket fire and violence already, but Israel is apparently being relatively patient allowing Hamas to take steps to stop it... And, like above, either Hamas will take meaningful steps to stop it, or they won't.... Either way, look for Hamas to continually find ways to place the blame elsewhere, or to try to change "the rules". |
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 03:35:31 PM by realityman »
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