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Author Topic: McCain's Account of Time in Vietnam  (Read 1299 times)
And Justice For All
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« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2008, 03:06:35 PM »

McCain is a old man who is crabby because he was in Vietnam!!!

I think that the strategy may not work though!! lets add into it he hates women too!!

He only likes the women that are junkies and steal from pharmacies. Wink
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Cass
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« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2008, 05:34:57 PM »

Actually, Patton, you're incorrect.

"Students at the Naval Academy are referred to by their military rank (Midshipman). Upon graduation, most Naval Academy Midshipmen are commissioned as Ensigns in the Navy or Second Lieutenants in the Marine Corps and must serve a minimum of five years after their commissioning."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Naval_Academy#Rank_structure

It appears you've forgotten the difference in the rank structure in the Army, Air Force and the Navy in the officer corps.

Takes a while for Ensigns to achieve the rank of Lieutenant Junior Grade, (Lt. J.G.) before he or she becomes a Naval Lieutenant.

While you may indeed find the discussion of McCain's qualifications related to his military service to be amusing
and salute his military experience as a basis for becoming CIC, 1st Lieutenant Bush has in many ways not shown
his military experience to be of great value serving as POTUS.  In fact some might suggest those who have served
as POTUS with previous military experience have not been among the most distinguished, other than Washington
and perhaps JFK, though with his assassination, there is less ability to make that assessment.  George H.W. Bush
failed to be re-elected though his military service was heroic.  LBJ's service didn't appear to lead him, though debatable, to the right decisions during the conflict in Nam.  Reagan, remains revered by those in the GOP even though his military service took place on the back lot of a movie studio, rather than in combat during WWII and was reelected while Carter was not.  As a consequence the question of military service as an important factor for
serving as POTUS, IMHO remains an open question.

No doubt the argument will continue related to this topic. As we have discussed previously, some vets will support
McCain for that reason while others will disagree. To be quite frank, neither candidate still standing was my first
choice, but in the end, come November we will see in the exit polls if McCain's military career was a winner or a
loser for him as I have no doubt it will be a question asked for the voters.  

 




« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 05:42:02 PM by Cass » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2008, 07:44:17 PM »

You guys are too funny.....
What do you call the guy who graduates at the bottom of Annapolis?
Lieutenant.

Ensign, actually. Only with four years of successful service will he or she earn the right to be called Lieutenant.

As for McCain's war record, it's really about all he has, so his campaign and his fans make a big deal about it. His record speaks to his character, no question. And it speaks well of it. But as General Clark rightly noted, flying planes and getting shot down has precious little to do with qualifying to be President of the United States. Talk about a no-brainer.

But it's just amazing to watch conservatives trip over themselves to "honor" McCain's service, when eight years ago the fact that their candidate had used his dad's political ties to keep Junior out of Vietnam was considered irrelevant. And four years ago they were more than happy to brutally smear one of the most highly decorated veterans Vietnam produced, John Kerry, in order to get their Texas Air National Guard "hero" reelected.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 07:46:36 PM by jpn of Seattle » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2008, 07:57:32 PM »

And four years ago they were more than happy to brutally smear one of the most highly decorated veterans Vietnam produced, John Kerry, in order to get their Texas Air National Guard "hero" reelected.

Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssh!

The GOP has the veteran now, so stop whining!
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« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2008, 03:18:08 AM »

What's funny is the attempts to denigrate and smear McCains record to somehow puff-up Obama.....

What's funnier still is Obama having to make a speech to show his patriotism.....I guess because evidently he's not sure if people think he is.....McCain somehow doesn't have to do that....

But the funniest of all is knowing Cass has more military experience than Obama by just sleeping next to a uniform....I just can't get over that one.......

You all keep the swiftboating up though, along with pissing on religion...because with the empty suit you are all wearing...it seems to be all you got.
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« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2008, 04:20:32 AM »

Shame that Clark has to stoop so low. I didn't think he was that much of a scumbag.

McCain served his country honorably and Clark ought to know better.
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« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2008, 04:32:27 AM »

Quote
Shame that Clark has to stoop so low. I didn't think he was that much of a scumbag.

McCain served his country honorably and Clark ought to know better.

Do you think Clark was making some kind of play for VP by showing an attack-dog side?
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« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2008, 05:31:50 AM »

Quote
Shame that Clark has to stoop so low. I didn't think he was that much of a scumbag.

McCain served his country honorably and Clark ought to know better.

Do you think Clark was making some kind of play for VP by showing an attack-dog side?
I hope it fails. He isn't worthy of the office.
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« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2008, 11:17:50 AM »

What's funnier still is Obama having to make a speech to show his patriotism.....I guess because evidently he's not sure if people think he is.....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that how Republicans are going to warp their pathetic attempt to initially question his patriotism? Cause he doesn't flash it around with some lapel pin?



"How low will they go?"
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« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2008, 11:31:08 AM »

I don't know what they are going to do....I simply found the concept of a "I'm A Patriot Too" speech hilarious....as with most things out of this guys mouth.....

And yet, at certain times over the last sixteen months, I have found, for the first time, my patriotism challenged - at times as a result of my own carelessness, more often as a result of the desire by some to score political points and raise fears about who I am and what I stand for.

Too friggin funny......
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« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2008, 11:35:15 AM »

I don't know what they are going to do....I simply found the concept of a "I'm A Patriot Too" speech hilarious....as with most things out of this guys mouth.....

And yet, at certain times over the last sixteen months, I have found, for the first time, my patriotism challenged - at times as a result of my own carelessness, more often as a result of the desire by some to score political points and raise fears about who I am and what I stand for.

Too friggin funny......

And too friggin true...
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« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2008, 11:49:10 AM »

Another factor of the result of McCain's imprisonment might be like many who are returning from Iraq and Afghanistan today, there might me some implications, though we
have no way of knowing, because the full release of his military records remains a mystery.  Could such behavior be the results of PTSD?  I don't know, but certainly erratic
behavior is a not an atypical one from those who have such experiences.  One more factor, related, very possibly in hardly a positive way to the POW status he's has made a political career of.  Should one who apparently has such an explosive temper be one who is trustworthy with their finger on the "atomic button?"

McCain's History of Blow Ups: 10 More Examples
By jwilkes - Wednesday, June 11th, 2008 at 2:11 PM
         
"Do I feel passionately about issues?" John McCain has said.  "Absolutely.  Do I get angry when I see pork barreling and wasteful spending? Absolutely."  But his care for the most important topics of the day notwithstanding, McCain has had more than a few volatile run-ins with colleagues, staffers, and officials.  Back by popular demand, here are the next ten most egregious instances of John McCain's temper getting the best of him.
 
10. Volunteer Campaign Aide
Back on November 5, 1999, the Arizona Republic ran a story about one particular example of McCain's mistreatment of his own campaign staff, an outburst that would haunt him for years to come. Just hours after McCain was elected to the Senate for the first time, a campaign volunteer was setting up a podium, from which the newly-elected Senator was to deliver a victory speech.  When the 5'9 McCain saw that the podium was being set up to accommodate a taller man, McCain snapped, hurling expletives and epithets at the young aide as members of the press and supporters watched.
 
9.  Judy Leiby, Senior Aide to Sen. Dennis DeConcini (D-AZ)
In Ron Kessler's July 5, 2000 Newsmax piece titled, "McCain's Out-of-Control Anger: Does He Have the Temperament to Be President?" the author recounted McCain's encounter with Judy Leiby, a senior member of Senator Dennis DeConcini's staff.  DeConcini, an Arizona Democrat, had announced his retirement, and McCain had stopped by to wish him well.  Seeing a large crowd, McCain shook the hand of everyone in the office - except Leiby, who had differed with him on a number of issues during her time in DeConcini's office.  Sensing the awkwardness, one of the other staff members asked McCain if he'd been introduced to Leiby.  "Oh," he said,  "I know her."  McCain wheeled back to Leiby and said, "I'm so glad you're out of a job, and I'll see to it that you never work again."  McCain admitted that he'd made the comment, saying that he hadn't held Leiby in "particularly high esteem."
 
8.  Jim Abbot, Coronado National Forest Supervisor
In the same Newsmax piece mentioned above, Kessler interviewed Jim Abbot, a park ranger who oversaw operations at Coronado National Forest, a large forest located in McCain's home state.  Abbot had become concerned that construction on a new building at the University of Arizona was threatening some of the park's endangered wildlife, and petitioned for a temporary halt to construction.  When it was granted, McCain got in touch with him.  "If you don't cooperate on this project," he threatened, "you'll be the shortest tenured supervisor in the history of the Forest Service."
 
7.  Robin Silver, Bob Witzeman - Medical Doctors
Stemming from the issue of construction and the endangered species in Coronado National Forest, McCain received a visit from two doctors who had been involved in local environmental preservation: Robin Silver, and Bob Witzeman.  At the very mention of the matter, McCain exploded, slamming his fists on his desk, scattering papers about the room, and unleashing a tirade of expletives and threats that lasted for 10 minutes.  Silver commented that McCain's outburst was uncalled for, and McCain apologized.
 
6.  Rep. John LeBoutillier (R-NY)
A New York Republican on the House Armed Services Committee, Rep. John LeBoutillier had interviewed McCain in a meeting regarding POWs.  During the meeting, LeBoutillier had placed a tape recorder on the table.
 
Later, LeBoutillier encountered McCain in the course of House business, but McCain refused to speak to him without confirming that he wasn't tape recording the conversation.  "Are you wired up?" McCain demanded.  Despite LeBoutilliers assertions that he was not, McCain insisted that he lower his pants and prove that he was not wearing any kind of listening device.
 
"He's a vicious person," LeBoutillier said of his former colleague.
 
5.  Senator Richard Shelby, (R-AL)
In a piece that ran in the January 28, 2000 edition of Investor's Business Daily titled, "Can McCain Control His Temper?" the editorial board raised the issue of an incident between McCain and another of his Senate colleagues, Republican Richard Shelby of Alabama. Shelby had cast a vote against the nomination of Defense Secretary John Tower, and McCain became enraged, getting an inch away from Shelby's face.  McCain screamed at him, letting expletives and names fly.  Mcain was "half boasting" when he said, "I was madder than hell when I accosted him."
 
4.  Delegation of Female Air Force Pilots
Former editor of the Arizona Republic, Pat Murphy, wrote a detailed editorial that was carried by a number of different papers in December of 1999.  Murphy pointed to an incident in which a delegation interested in expanding opportunities for female pilots visited McCain at his Senate office back in 1991.  McCain greeted them by calling them "honey," and "sweetie," and then proceeded to disparage them, calling them "a bunch of Pat Schroeders."  Schroeder was a Colorado Democrat who had championed women's rights issues while in office.
 
3.  Diane Smith, a McCain Constituent
Murphy also mentions Diane Smith, a constituent of McCain, who wrote to the Senator to criticize what she perceived as unfair treatment of Anita Hill, the woman who claimed to have been sexually harassed by then-Supreme Court nominee Clarence Thomas.  McCain personally called the 60 year-old woman and berated her for "questioning [his] integrity."
 
2.  Sandra Dowling, Maricopa County School Superintendent
In a 60 Minutes interview with Morley Safer, Sandra Dowling, the Maricopa County (Arizona) superintendent of schools, recounted the time she'd refused McCain's demand that she retract her support of a political rival of one of McCain's protégés.  McCain screamed at her, threatening to "destroy" her.  Her son soon thereafter lost his appointment to the US Naval Academy (of which McCain is an alum).  McCain denied any connection, though he sits as an ex officio member of the Board of Visitors.
 
1.  NBC
The television network NBC refused to support a television rating system that McCain had proposed be introduced.  McCain wrote to the network's president, Robert Wright, threatening to work to have the Federal Communications Commission lift NBC licenses on locally-owned stations.

http://www.eyesonobama.com/blog/content/id_20282/title_McCains-History-of-Blow-Ups-10-More-Examples/



LOL!! What do you mean "you guys."

The sources for 10, 9 and 8 are from the conservative Arizona Republic and wingnut Newsmax.

The sources of 6 and 5 are a Representative and a Senator with a R next to their names.

Oh...that ain't US guys...
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« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2008, 12:12:52 PM »

Who knows Abraxas, to what level McCain and supporters will stoop to for the purpose of the same old Bush type exhortation of "if you're not with us then you stand with the terrorists" claim, when those who don't agree with the policies and practices of the current Administration are labeled "unpatriotic."  

Apparently, according to Patton, I must be "sleeping with the enemy."  Though the uniforms have been carefully stored with the medals still adorning the Class A ones, how horrible for me to be married to a retiree, combat vet, who also served in Nam, with contrasting opinions, we share between us, that don't fit those he believes should reflect all present military personnel, military retirees, and veterans. But as Patton has previously determined Vote Vets and Vets Voice a couple of far left (are all registered Democrats in his mind "far left?) groups, not all who support those groups are "unpatriotic" nor traitors.  Seems to me there is a legitimate right to ask questions as Gen.Clark did while not demeaning McCain's service.  Posted today on Vet Voice a worthwhile response IMHO to the reality not all share Patton and some others who post here's views.

McCain Flips at Legit Question
by: Jon Soltz
Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 13:59:07 PM EDT
I've been running VoteVets.org for a couple of years now. In 2006 and in 2008, we endorsed a number of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans for Congress. It's still a story that the press is largely interested in, and when they call me to talk about it, I always -- always -- get the same first question:
What is it about their honorable service in Iraq and/or Afghanistan that qualifies them to go to Congress?

It's a legit question, and neither I, nor any of the candidates, take any umbrage at it. As veterans of the current conflicts, they have a unique perspective on the wars that should be part of the debate on the floor of Congress, and a vote that helps shapes our security policy.

Yesterday, John McCain was asked basically the same question by a brave reporter at ABC News. The reporter, not falling for the hysterics and mock-outrage of the McCain camp over General Wesley Clark's comments simply asked what John McCain's experiences in Vietnam did to prepare him to lead the largest military on the face of the earth.

McCain's response?

"Please," he said, recoiling back in his seat in distaste at the very question.
Uh uh. That's not good enough. You would assume that given all the whining over General Clark's legitimate point, that John McCain had some obvious answer to the question. Instead, he refused to answer the question, and let Joe Lieberman and Lindsay Graham come to his defense, babbling to the reporter about character, but not a word about qualifications.

The fact of the matter is that General Clark was absolutely right. McCain's service, while heroic and honorable, is not very relevant when it comes to preparing him to be the military's ultimate commander. His experience didn't involve executive decision making in the military, or global strategy. Very few candidates for the presidency have had the experience in life that prepares them for that role. In fact, McCain said it himself in 2003, that some of our best Commanders in Chief had no military experience at all.

That's why the McCain campaign went into all-out outrage mode over General Clark's comments. It wasn't about being offended. It wasn't even about General Clark. It was about lashing out so strongly that the media would cower in fear, and not even think about putting a question like this to McCain -- a question to which he has no answer, and is afraid of being exposed on that point. And, for most of the week, that strategy was successful, as the press wimped out, and repeated the McCain talking points.

The reporter from ABC News didn't fall for it, and did his job. But he didn't get an answer. Maybe now, reporters will stuff their guts back in their bodies and keep asking McCain this legit question -- a question I get a version of all the time from the same reporters.

It's a legit question, and it's a question for which the American people deserve an answer.

Cross-posted at The Huffington Post

http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1540&view=print

Irwin, in response to your post of my previous one and Abraxas post as well, while I agree it shouldn't be a necessity for Obama to speak to his personal patriotism, considering the furor the MSM has created about to Clarke's statements related  to McCain's military experiences he claims provide him with greater ability to serve as CIC, the same experiences he has built a political career on along with the repetitive demeaning of any and all who disagreed with his policies and practices by Bush, most of which McCain and his surrogates are in complete agreement with, it really isn't about "patriotism" it's about, unlike Kerry, answering the charges made, rather than allowing those in the GOP to "swiftboat," with their charges going unanswered. 

Maybe instead of having surrogates further demean Obama, McCain should release his entire military records including his treatment for medical and possibly psychiatric conditions?  Perhaps such a release would end the open questions related to his fitness to serve not only as CIC, but with the massive variety of issues and decisions that of
necessity must be made by the person who sits behind that desk in the Oval Office?
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« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2008, 01:02:31 PM »

.....more often as a result of the desire by some to score political points and raise fears about who I am and what I stand for.

And too friggin true...

Welcome to politics Mr Obama.....grow a spine....I understand you won Carol Mosely Brauns Senate seat unopposed.....and you feel entitled to the Presidency as our "messiah"....but please quite whining about your political opponent "raising fears about who I am and what I stand for"......your not the first one this has happened to during an election.....

Apparently, according to Patton, I must be "sleeping with the enemy."........

Save your "military dependent" story for someone who may actually be impressed......apparently you missed the whole point of what I said, but Im not surprised....it's not the first time it has had to be explained to you drawing pictures with crayons.

The point was that your proximity to a uniform....any uniform....gives you more military experience than Obama...The End

Trying to take everyone down some Commissary shopping trip doesn't address your candidates weakness....and the more you bring up PX shopping and being stopped by MPs for going 25 in a 20 zone on base just magnifies your military experience over your candidates and makes him look all the more weak and pathetic.

All the while, Obama parades in front of a hundred flags and proclaims "I'm a Patriot too".......just in case no one noticed when all other Democrat candidates placed hands over there hearts during the national anthem.......he was playing "pocket pool".......
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 01:04:19 PM by Patton » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2008, 04:25:48 PM »

Apparently, Patton, you poor memory is not only related to an inability to remember the difference in rank in the various military branches, but while I've stated more than once on this thread and others, Obama was not my choice for POTUS, as you're left with a rather senile  former warrior, who will no doubt continue to keep you busy in your occupation,  I'm stuck with a choice I wouldn't and didn't make with my singular vote in the CA Democratic primary.

BTW, my personal military experience is unquestionably more than Obama's as you have stated, but not from BX nor commissary shopping,
though I've done my share of that over the years.  It is based on daily dealings for years with the Pentagon, as well as commanding officers
of all branches including the Coast Guard though there were DOT, but still considered military for the purpose of Congressional casework.
 
Those experiences are considerably different from yours or those of spouse #one and spouse# two both who retired following completion of their obligations.   In the days of my Congressional employment, those who were interested in acquiring funds for all those weapons systems or other military hardware were always more than willing to provide access for a very powerful Member of Congress, and/or his staff, when they called to initiate an "inquiry" related to the M.C.'s constituents.  A whole different picture about the inner workings of those who are ultimately responsible to the tax payer, who in the end is the one paying the freight, was available to those who served in my position.  A call identifying myself as calling for the Congressman, whether to the different branch, Pentagon Liaisons or to an individual commanding officer, never failed to get their attention.  And on other occasions, particularly when there were casualties, those who dealt with the families were often pleased that I was willing to assist at such times not just working Monday through Friday, but was in emergency circumstances available to be contacted at home.  It was a very valuable learning experience about how past the daily activities of the service member, those who make the ultimately decisions related to their lives, actually operate. While some consider Congressional
employment to be solely a political job, that is far from the case.

But realistically this discussion as it relates to thee and me is all beside the point. The bottom line being whether voters in November are willing to trust the future of their security, and that of the nation, to a former military person who other than his stint as a POW for which he is deserving of respect, but didn't have what one might call a really sterling military career.  Or will they choose a person who has no military experience, but is willing to listen to wise advisers, and attempt as the majority of the public, who still carry the freight,  long ago decided they want an end to the results of the invasion and occupation of Iraq, as well as an end to the costs in both lives and treasure and make an honest effort to carry out the will of the people.

Patton time will tell.  But while you assume the correct choice of those who serve, those who are retired after years of honorable service, even if not as a POW, or those who continue to serve should be made based on McCain's military experiences, you may find, that end the
end, there are many more than my spouse and me who choose to take a chance on less experience than go with what McCain continues to
advocate which remains nothing more than the same.   

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who knows what life would be like now had they lived.
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