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Author Topic: Bush's faith based programs  (Read 420 times)
Irwin
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« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2008, 11:56:18 AM »

Wrong.  It's another classic flip flop from Mr. Empty Suit.

From:  'I can no more disown [Wright] than I can disown my white grandmother' on March 18 to
(funny how it's not just his "grandmother"...)

Now: 'Senator Barack Obama, saying that he'd had enough, forcefully repudiated his former pastor today and declared that racially charged remarks made by the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. contradict "all that I stand for.' on April 29.

So when you ask "Which is it?" that's a question you should aim directly at Senator Obama.  Nothing happened in those five or six weeks that hadn't happened in twenty-years of "God Damn America" preaching. 

So what happened that justifies his flip flop again?

You miss the fundamental question:  How could he have been so blind for those twenty years - that's the issue you're missing.  His flip-flop and throwing his friend under the bus is just a political expediency by a politician.  Gotta stab somebody in the back to get ahead, right?  Might as well be your friends, you know, the ones that baptized your children and performed your marriage ceremony.  If you're going to sell your soul, might as well go long.

You just restated the question without adding anything. First you critisize him for sticking by him and then you criticize him for not.

See, in politics, throwing somebody under the bus is what he should have done the FIRST time. But he remained loyal. And you criticized him for it. Then, Wright, betrayed his implied trust by shooting off his mouth again. So he's out, so you criticize him for that. You can't have it both ways.

When he's loyal, he's a racist and when he not he's a backstabber.

Sounds to me he can do no right. But you wingnuts are mentally unbalanced.
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Reaganite
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« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2008, 12:04:24 PM »

Forgive irwin he does not understand.

Obama said he cant disown Wright and then wright simple REPEATED what he has said many times before then Obama DISOWNED him... lol.. so what changed?

What changed is Obama did not disown him because he thouight it was right he did it because he was forced too..
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neue regel
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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2008, 12:12:52 PM »

Obama will disown this faith based idea, too, should it get that far.
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Abraxas
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« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2008, 12:32:08 PM »

Wrong.  It's another classic flip flop from Mr. Empty Suit.

From:  'I can no more disown [Wright] than I can disown my white grandmother' on March 18 to
(funny how it's not just his "grandmother"...)

Funny (though unsurprising) how you don't even get the quote right Roll Eyes .

"I can no more disown [Rev. Wright] than I can disown THE BLACK COMMUNITY."
- LINK

Quote from: Stephen Hero
Now: 'Senator Barack Obama, saying that he'd had enough, forcefully repudiated his former pastor today and declared that racially charged remarks made by the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. contradict "all that I stand for.' on April 29.

So he was supposed to predict Wright would become a media spectacle? That he would go crazy under the "white, hot lights" and fail to respect Obama's campaign?

Quote from: Stephen Hero
So when you ask "Which is it?" that's a question you should aim directly at Senator Obama.  Nothing happened in those five or six weeks that hadn't happened in twenty-years of "God Damn America" preaching.

I didn't know you were part of the weekly congregation.
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Toaster
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« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2008, 12:48:09 PM »

You just know that most of the fine folk objecting to this were all aboard when it was Bush.

Do you have to shave both faces?
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Cass
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« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2008, 12:52:49 PM »

Hey...he had to do something after tossing his church under the bus......

Unlike JPN, Cass, and other Democrat apologists who ridicule, denigrate and mock religion....Obama see's the value in those of faith since they make up the vast majority of the electorate.....

Maybe you should clarify the above accusation with words I have previously stated rather than using a broad brush for the purpose of  condemning me: Patton. As I have previously stated, I don't give a classic flying one who, how, when or if you choose to worship and have made that more than clear in previous posts.

I just happen to be an old fashioned believer in the First Amendment and a firm belief the Framers of the Constitution took great pains in designing a document that avoided the possibility of the theocracies experienced in Europe being established in the new nation and the freedoms we will celebrate this week on the date attributed to the acceptance of the Declaration of Independence.

Please note that in that famous document ratified on the 4th of July, 1776, there is clear mention of a "creator" and the word "God" is also a factor specifically in this section:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —"

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

But unlike the current attempt to attribute such historical statements to the establishment of a "Christian nation", neither that "creator" nor "God" is identified as Jesus Christ. This statement never fails to clarify a protection of your rights, but they also protect mine. The unfortunate circumstances is those words are most often used by some
to attempt to claim the superiority of those religious groups who are defined as Christian.

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Perhaps the real question that arises with faith based programs is whether or not provision of the tax dollars of all citizens of the U.S. constitutes "the establishment of religion" though to date the  Supremes ruled in favor of Bush's Faith Based programs in this decision which, not atypical of the GOP dominated court, is a very narrow one
dealing with only very narrow and specific issues if one takes the time to read the case.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=06-157

As a consequence, to date, Faith Based programs have been established as legal by the Supremes.  

If one studies the issue, I believe most would find that often those social programs administered by various religious groups can be highly effective in many communities and
have been historically.  I know a number of programs provided by a Catholic Organization, Stanford Settlement, in my local community provides excellent services that may
now be lost to some because of the cuts related to the CA budget.  To the best of my knowledge these services have always been delivered to all who need with no discrimination related to the personal beliefs of the beneficiaries.  

But to go back to my previous statements on a personal level, while I noted that I am not Christian having personally chosen the belief system of many of the Framer's: Deism, so long as the services delivered by faith based groups is accomplished with no discrimination, when one is a believer of Christ's teachings in the Beatitudes,
I have no difficulty on a personal level with faith based programs.  

While that opinion, for some, may appear to be a contradictory one, the Supreme ruling along with realistic pragmatic beliefs, also based on experience as the former Chairperson of the Board of the first public homeless shelter established in county of my previous residence lead me to those beliefs.  That experience was related to a viable group of religious organizations who came together and under the umbrella of a public organization eventually were able to obtain both state and federal funding to "shelter the homeless" quite successfully with no discrimination based on the doctrine nor the dogma of any of the various religious groups involved along with social service groups in
that community.
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« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2008, 12:55:47 PM »

Abraxas,

You get the award for totally missing the point.  But nice try?

The point of the post is that Mr. Empty Suit does a complete 180 flip-flop and throws his self-described mentor and father-figure under the bus because six weeks in the spring suddenly opened his eyes to the truth of Rev. God Damn America?  Right.  Either he's a liar, or he's extremely stupid.  Take your pick.  Either one doesn't make for a good President.

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Stephen Hero
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« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2008, 01:09:04 PM »

You just know that most of the fine folk objecting to this were all aboard when it was Bush.

Do you have to shave both faces?

I love the total presumption of people's thoughts, and then the straw-man hypocrisy charge based on that presumption.  Great logic.  Sounds like fun, let's try it out.

You just know that Toaster loves having sex with diseased sheep.

Do you pour penicillin in your breakfast cereal?
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Never let us do wrong, because our opponents did so. Let us, rather, by doing right, show them what they ought to have done, and establish a rule the dictates of reason and conscience, rather than of the angry passions.
Cass
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« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2008, 01:28:04 PM »

You just know that most of the fine folk objecting to this were all aboard when it was Bush.

Do you have to shave both faces?

I love the total presumption of people's thoughts, and then the straw-man hypocrisy charge based on that presumption.  Great logic.  Sounds like fun, let's try it out.

You just know that Toaster loves having sex with diseased sheep.

Do you pour penicillin in your breakfast cereal?

An absolutely amazing response Stephen Hero, for one who complains about ad hominem attacks by other posters.  Apparently, at some point you lost the topic of the post.
Just as a polite reminder it is "Bush's faith based programs."
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Stephen Hero
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« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2008, 01:32:35 PM »

An absolutely amazing response Stephen Hero, for one who complains about ad hominem attacks by other posters.  Apparently, at some point you lost the topic of the post.
Just as a polite reminder it is "Bush's faith based programs."

You missed the point.  It was an example showing the flaw in Toaster's logic.

Hippies smell.
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Never let us do wrong, because our opponents did so. Let us, rather, by doing right, show them what they ought to have done, and establish a rule the dictates of reason and conscience, rather than of the angry passions.
Patton
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« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2008, 02:05:35 PM »

See, in politics, throwing somebody under the bus is what he should have done the FIRST time. But he remained loyal. And you criticized him for it. Then, Wright, betrayed his implied trust by shooting off his mouth again. So he's out, so you criticize him for that. You can't have it both ways.

Why not?

It's the classic "pickle" or "damned if you do, damned if you don't".......guess you've never heard of those.

He probably shouldn't attend a church like that if he wants to be President...but he did anyway...so that's his first error in judgement.

Then states he will stand by his church....good....at least we know you stick to your guns, even if it was a mistake.

Uh Oh

Staying with the church is not a politically popular thing to do, so in the name of expediancy DUMP the church....second error in judgement....no longer can we count on him to stick to his guns.

Quote
When he's loyal, he's a racist and when he not he's a backstabber.

Your words, not mine.....so I guess I will agree with you.
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Toaster
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« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2008, 06:28:56 PM »

If you're not a hypocrite who supported it when Bush did it, my words don't apply to you.

If you're offended because you are a hypocrite - then do you shave both faces?
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Abraxas
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« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2008, 06:39:13 PM »

Abraxas,

You get the award for totally missing the point.  But nice try?

I missed the point?

You intentionally misquoted him. WTF is up with that?

Quote from: Stephen Hero
The point of the post is that Mr. Empty Suit does a complete 180 flip-flop and throws his self-described mentor and father-figure under the bus because six weeks in the spring suddenly opened his eyes to the truth of Rev. God Damn America?  Right.  Either he's a liar, or he's extremely stupid.  Take your pick.  Either one doesn't make for a good President.

From the choices you give?

No.

Just cause you're brain works in only one direction: "Obama is bad, McCain is awesome" doesn't mean mine does too.

I don't like either, but I'm willing to give Obama (you know, the guy running for president - his reverend is irrelevent) the benefit of the doubt, considering everything HE (Obama) has ever said on racism in the US.
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