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Author Topic: Israel versus Hamas and Friends  (Read 205 times)
Terry Mathis
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« on: July 03, 2008, 09:23:30 AM »



Well now, we have a 'tenuous' peace between Hamas and Israel, many thanks to Egypt for that. I hope it will lead to bigger and better things... I'm not holding my breath though.

I am afraid Israel will go winging it into Gaza very hard should the truce breakdown. Devastating results will follow , as the Israeli people are putting a huge amount of pressure on the government to do so. They are simply tired of missiles and mortars landing indiscriminately amongst them.

What will happen?
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Cass
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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2008, 11:04:33 AM »

Terry, I would agree with the term "tenuous," but disagree that is it peace, but only a temporary truce with no valid predictions IMHO as to whether there is within this truce a long term solution to what is even a far more long term problem. The question remains and will continue to whether either side, Hamas, any group who represents Palestinians, or the current Israeli government, is willing to take the steps required to end the violence that has continued since the partition, now over 60 years ago.

Over that historical period, attempts have been made to work out a two state solution, sometimes appearing to reach a state of relative success, but in the end one side or another, has in a variety of ways chosen violence, rather than peace.  Neither is guilt free and neither is totally complicit. Were it not for very serious implications, particularly,
related to the acquisition of Israel of the ability to use their atomic weaponry to create a new type of holocaust in the Middle East, my first inclination would be to suggest a pox on all and move on with avoiding the whole topic.

I believe my personal basis for a greater concern related to atomic war is the result of my experiences living through the long "cold war" when the threat was brought home more because of my residence on U.S. military installations with the experience of regularly being aware of the take off of the aircraft designed for the purpose of delivering atomic weaponry and never knowing if it was merely a drill or if in the end it signaled the beginning of an world wide atomic war. That fear remains and with recent events has become more urgent which effects my opinions, perhaps a factor those of latter generations have little understanding of?

But rather than continue with the disagreements on this forum, as I have done in the past and may choose to continue to do in the future, my response is to simply share an essay that for me makes valid points.  One singular opinion from an individual, a computer scientist, not a governmental advocate for either side in this long and possibly continued violent conflict. 

Currently, I would hope since the cease fire brokered by Egypt, rather than the U.S., as I believe most have been previously, that nation will take relevant steps to attempt to enforce the agreement.  While the Egyptians share a peace treaty with Israel, I suspect there is little to be accomplished by any action related to any Israeli choices, but perhaps there can be effort made to influence Hamas, if not Fatah nor the various independent militant groups who might choose to take steps against any realistic efforts, made by the parties to the agreement.   

So sharing this writing which may not sit well with those who have pre-determined the results of the current circumstances, I will add this for those who might  choose to read and give this opinion any form of serious consideration and then bow out of further discussion on this thread and the one where you requested some "peace" among forum members out of mutual respect I share with you.  Cass

Why Israel Won't Accept a Two-State Solution

by Bernard Chazelle



The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is often narrated as a morality play, where offers are generous, lessons are taught, consciousness is seared, terrorism is rewarded, etc. Let's quit the blame game and focus, instead, on what's feasible and what's not. For starters, one can safely notch the right-wing fantasy of a Jordanian absorption of Palestine in the "Dream on, settlers" column. Ethnic cleansing is passé.

What about a one-state solution? Within 10 years, Jews will be a clear minority in the population west of the Jordan, so a democratic unitary state (eg, modeled on South Africa) would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state, an outcome not everyone would greet with cartwheels. Though rarely discussed, a federal alternative could be envisaged. Besides the sticky issue of land division, however, the physical laws of politics work against it. Absent a modicum of trust and a desire to share a common fate, centrifugal forces might prove too powerful to forestall an eventual breakup. If Belgium, a model of harmony by Mideast standards, can barely pull it off, what chance does a (con)federal "Isratine" have? Don't expect a democratic binational state any time soon.

The two-state solution has its appeal. It would satisfy a majority of Palestinians and confer upon Israel the statehood legitimacy that it craves. It would bring the Jewish state peace with the Arab world along the lines of the 2002 Saudi Initiative, as well as a recognized right of self-defense against Palestinian cross-border attacks. Unfortunately, 40 years of history have gamed the system against the two-state solution. Once the only realistic road to peace, it is now a challenge likely beyond Israel's ability. This leaves the region with two options: Apartheid or war. Barring a miracle, it will get both. So let's talk about the miracle.

The complete essay by Chazelle is available on the link.

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~chazelle/politics/wb08-essay.html
 

 


« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 05:10:25 PM by Cass » Logged

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Fredledingue
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2008, 12:38:02 PM »

The only miracle is that everyone embarks on a time machine and wake up 4000 years later when the region is finaly civilized. (they are not going to fight 8000 years, are they?)

Seriousely I mean, we need time. Not a few years, but rather a few decades until we see peace.
Slowly, veeeeeeeeery slowly, these populations will see that peace is better than war.

In 50 years, I see it like the Irish conflict: still supposedly at war but with a largely common understanding that violence makes no sens.
In the meantime I'm afraid there is nothing we can do.
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Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!)

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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2008, 02:24:17 PM »


Well now, we have a 'tenuous' peace between Hamas and Israel, many thanks to Egypt for that. I hope it will lead to bigger and better things... I'm not holding my breath though.

I am afraid Israel will go winging it into Gaza very hard should the truce breakdown. Devastating results will follow , as the Israeli people are putting a huge amount of pressure on the government to do so. They are simply tired of missiles and mortars landing indiscriminately amongst them.

What will happen?

I think you're right Terry... Israelis have about "had it" with the almost daily barrage of missles and mortars being fired at them (prior to this ceasefire... now it's closer to every third day  Wink )...

Israel has made no secret of their intention to go after Hamas (and the others) on a much larger scale should this cease fire not last, though Israel is certainly giving this cease fire every opportunity to work and last, not having retaliated yet against any of the "several" violations .... I think we all HOPE this ceasefire will lead to bigger and better things... But we've also all HOPED for this before with every previous cease fire and negotiation, only to have those hopes dashed time and time again... While I hold out HOPE, I see no meaningful changes, particularly on the part of Hamas and it's agenda, which would lead me to believe that this time will end different from any of the other times before... But, as with every time before, I'd love for my skepticism to be proven wrong.

Quote from: Cass
...I would agree with the term "tenuous," but disagree that is it peace, but only a temporary truce....

And I fully agree with that... A truce, which by definition is only temporary in nature, is the best Hamas has ever been willing to offer with regard to Israel... So long as they refuse to even consider ever recognizing Israel's right to exist and changing their agenda toward Israel's destruction (so well defined in their Covenant, which they openly refuse to change), little of a permanent nature with regard to peace is possible....
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 03:05:38 PM by realityman » Logged
Zenter
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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2008, 03:26:42 PM »

I hope this ceasefire lasts, but I am quite skeptical that it will.

Only when Hamas recognizes that Israeli's have just as much right to live in Israel and they believe they do will this violence end. I don't understand why many choose to ignore this and do not try to push Hamas to agree to this most basic understanding to build peace.
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realityman
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 05:28:12 PM »

I hope this ceasefire lasts, but I am quite skeptical that it will.

Only when Hamas recognizes that Israeli's have just as much right to live in Israel and they believe they do will this violence end. I don't understand why many choose to ignore this and do not try to push Hamas to agree to this most basic understanding to build peace.

Exactly right Zenter...

So long as Hamas (and the others) refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist and have ideals of destroying it, (so long as they're allowed to roam the streets freely) there can be no meaningful lasting peace....  While most of the rational world may recognize this as basic logic, somehow the anti-Israel crowd continually wants to ignore it...
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