Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +213/-207
Posts: 4,100
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
 |
« on: July 07, 2008, 02:11:21 PM » |
|
Russian blogger sentenced for "extremist" post
MOSCOW (Reuters) - A Russian man who described local police as "scum" in an Internet posting was given a suspended jail sentence on Monday for extremism, prompting bloggers to warn of a crackdown on free speech online. Savva Terentiev, a 28-year-old musician from Syktyvkar, 1,515 kilometres (940 miles) north of Moscow, wrote in a blog last year that the police force should be cleaned up by ceremonially burning officers twice a day in a town square. SOURCEOK, yeah, maybe he went kind of far to offend the police... but yikes! I'm proud to not be Russian...
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
Jericoacoara
Hero Member
   
Karma: +68/-11
Posts: 895
Fortaleza IAP 1.0
|
 |
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2008, 05:25:55 AM » |
|
Actually the suspended sentence in Russia is reasonably tame compared to other countries. A human rights group says a 24-year-old Syrian blogger has been convicted and sentenced to three years in prison on charges of undermining the prestige of the state and weakening national morale.
In a statement sent to The Associated Press on Wednesday, The National Organization for Human Rights in Syria condemned the verdict issued the day before as "outrageous" and called for Tarek Bayassi's immediate release.
The rights group says Bayassi's sentence was commuted to three years after an original sentence of six years. Bayassi was arrested last May in northwest Syria for surfing sites of Syrian opposition groups and posting comments online.
The Syrian government frequently arrests activists for posting comments critical of the government online. http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/14/africa/ME-GEN-Syria-Blogger.phpAn Egyptian court has sentenced a blogger to four years' prison for insulting Islam and the president. Abdel Kareem Soliman's trial was the first time that a blogger had been prosecuted in Egypt.
He had used his web log to criticise the country's top Islamic institution, al-Azhar university and President Hosni Mubarak, whom he called a dictator.
A human rights group called the verdict "very tough" and a "strong message" to Egypt's thousands of bloggers. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6385849.stmThere have been even cases in western countries of bloggers or forum posters being charged over what they write on the internet. There was an ex IAP poster who was charged for posting continual racist remarks on a political forum(not IAP) and was fined by the court.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The greatest tragedy is for a person to die with the music still within them.
|
|
|
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +213/-207
Posts: 4,100
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
 |
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2008, 06:45:04 AM » |
|
There have been even cases in western countries of bloggers or forum posters being charged over what they write on the internet.
There was an ex IAP poster who was charged for posting continual racist remarks on a political forum(not IAP) and was fined by the court. You're really up on things, aren't you?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
|
mdma
|
 |
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2008, 08:24:41 AM » |
|
Allowing a citizen to call policeman a "scum" in mass media like internet is an anarchy, allowing citizen to constructively criticize police member or even take it's officers to courthouse is democracy.
This is why many would call American democracy an anarchy and Russian democracy as totalitarianism.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
notin
|
|
|
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +213/-207
Posts: 4,100
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
 |
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 08:52:03 AM » |
|
Allowing a citizen to call policeman a "scum" in mass media like internet is an anarchy, allowing citizen to constructively criticize police member or even take it's officers to courthouse is democracy. ... calling them what ever you want without reprisal is free speech... This is why many would call American democracy an anarchy... This is whay many don't take you seriously...
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
|
mdma
|
 |
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 11:19:00 AM » |
|
... calling them what ever you want without reprisal is free speech...
No. Any citizen should have respect to other person and especially authority otherwise it would create an anarchy. I know this is hard for you because you are blond but think of what would happen if i will constantly insult you? It doesn't look nice isn't it ? You will look like fag and other members won't enjoy that. This is why many would call American democracy an anarchy... This is whay many don't take you seriously... [/quote] What do you mean by that? American democracy is an anarchy for for Russians while Russian democracy is totalitarian regime for Americans. What's not serious about that? Do you really think American democracy is an ultimate democracy in the world? I always thought Iraq is. Prove me i'm wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
notin
|
|
|
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +213/-207
Posts: 4,100
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
 |
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2008, 11:51:04 AM » |
|
No. Any citizen should have respect to other person and especially authority otherwise it would create an anarchy. I know this is hard for you because you are blond but think of what would happen if i will constantly insult you? It doesn't look nice isn't it ? You will look like fag and other members won't enjoy that. Actually, you will just look like a bigger douche bag then you already are... But regardless, authority should only be respected if it is responsible. What do you mean by that? American democracy is an anarchy for for Russians while Russian democracy is totalitarian regime for Americans. What's not serious about that? You just said "many people". You didn't say "many people in America" and "many people in Russia". Your original post made it sound like you were accusing the US of being an anarchist state and Russia being a totalitarian state. You failed to say that these were the impressions of the country's populace on the other. Do you really think American democracy is an ultimate democracy in the world? Where did I say that?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
|
mdma
|
 |
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2008, 12:32:56 PM » |
|
Actually, you will just look like a bigger douche bag then you already are... But regardless, authority should only be respected if it is responsible.
keep your fag slur for your hommies. You are not to decide whether authority is responsible or not, especially on blogs. There is a law system and all accusations must go thought it. You just said "many people". You didn't say "many people in America" and "many people in Russia".
There are pretty much ppl in Russia, rest of Eastern Europe and Central Asia who share same feelings towards US. Your original post made it sound like you were accusing the US of being an anarchist state and Russia being a totalitarian state. You failed to say that these were the impressions of the country's populace on the other.
I do accuse US for being combination of anarchy and democracy and Russia being 'totalitarian democracy'. I never said one is wrong. I think Russia should have more freedom and Us should have more respect towards authorities. It cannot be written by law but this is matter of proper education when cows turn to be human. Where did I say that?
I don't know, this is an impression your post made on me.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 12:35:15 PM by mdma »
|
Logged
|
notin
|
|
|
Jericoacoara
Hero Member
   
Karma: +68/-11
Posts: 895
Fortaleza IAP 1.0
|
 |
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2008, 03:00:32 PM » |
|
The Russian guy was charged under the incitement of hatred charge. Savva Terentiev, a 28-year-old musician from Syktyvkar, 1,515 kilometres (940 miles) north of Moscow, wrote in a blog last year that the police force should be cleaned up by ceremonially burning officers twice a day in a town square.
Convicted on charges of "inciting hatred or enmity", Terentiev was given a one-year suspended term on Monday, Without knowing the background to it, him being charged seems over the top. But the 'incitement to hatred' charge is an interesting one and has many grey areas. It is a charge that most western countries have made sure they have the power to apply, since the war on terrorism. I try to compare the above russian case with what would have happened in australia? If I set up a blog and wrote that policeman should be burnt twice a day, would I be charged? Probably not. If it is a joke or a throw away line, not much would happen. If I am serious, then probably the ISP would shut the blog down because of incitement to hatred. But if I am a muslim immigrant with links to muslim groups and I wrote in a blog that australian policeman should be burnt twice a day, would I be charged? It wouldn't surprise me if I was charged under the inciting hatred charge. For sure the blog would be shut down. The incitement to hatred laws are aimed to protect the citizens of the country but they are also as an by product an attack on freedom to speech. So this is where it becomes a grey area. As an aside, it was interesting to read in the article that Russia still has strong censorship of their media. I wasn't aware that was the case and thought that may have been relaxed since the fall of communism.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 03:08:00 PM by Jericoacoara »
|
Logged
|
The greatest tragedy is for a person to die with the music still within them.
|
|
|
Fredledingue
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +30/-31
Posts: 868
|
 |
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2008, 03:13:16 PM » |
|
The russian police took too seriousely what is written on the internet. Obviousely the guy has a dent against locale police but didn't write that seriousely, just a way to express his anger. Policemen and the judge took it to the letter.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!) 
|
|
|
Green
Full Member
 
Karma: +3/-3
Posts: 101
|
 |
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2008, 01:38:43 AM » |
|
I wonder if you say to the traffic police in America: "you guys are scum, you have to be burnt at the central square of the city twice a day, ok?" Well, maybe you'd say it not into his face, maybe you'd write it in your school board, your blog. Without using the police name. I think it would sound like : "I hate all ni*gers, let's burn the f*ck out of them". Ok? Though, police is not niggas, sure thing. Niggas don't have those big smoking barrels and shock-pistols. Niggas' kids are so cute. But the police is touchy. Like hell.
Hm, let's take the police is white. I mean, their skin. Ok? And the other white guy writes around how he hates'em all, dirty cops. "Let's call sheriff" says one other white guy. "Let's call nine-one-one, the lawer of Monica Lewinski" and so on.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 01:43:24 AM by Green »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
mdma
|
 |
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2008, 08:27:07 AM » |
|
Here you go Butters, got it in your face right from some Russian drunkard.
Maybe you don't know that Butters but police in Soviet Union of 90' got the same treatments as blacks got in US from blond faces like yours during beginning-middle of last century in U S and A. When black is being racially offended this is homophobia, when Russian policeman being offended then its homophobia with disrespect to authority which causes even more chaos than just homophobia. I would like to see American blogs calling "pigs" to certain city officer and not being shut down.
Freedom of the speech is worthless if you use it to offend doesn't matter who you offending and for. Not that i'm defending Russia which is well known for being "free".
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
notin
|
|
|
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +213/-207
Posts: 4,100
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
 |
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2008, 09:10:16 AM » |
|
I wonder if you say to the traffic police in America: "you guys are scum, you have to be burnt at the central square of the city twice a day, ok?" Well, maybe you'd say it not into his face, maybe you'd write it in your school board, your blog. Without using the police name. Ok... I'm with you so far... I think it would sound like : "I hate all ni*gers, let's burn the f*ck out of them". ... and now you've lost me. Ok? Though, police is not niggas, sure thing. Niggas don't have those big smoking barrels and shock-pistols. Niggas' kids are so cute. But the police is touchy. Like hell.
Hm, let's take the police is white. I mean, their skin. Ok? And the other white guy writes around how he hates'em all, dirty cops. "Let's call sheriff" says one other white guy. "Let's call nine-one-one, the lawer of Monica Lewinski" and so on. You've lost your mind... ... and failed to make a point. Here you go Butters, got it in your face right from some Russian drunkard.
Maybe you don't know that Butters but police in Soviet Union of 90' got the same treatments as blacks got in US from blond faces like yours during beginning-middle of last century in U S and A. When black is being racially offended this is homophobia, when Russian policeman being offended then its homophobia with disrespect to authority which causes even more chaos than just homophobia. I would like to see American blogs calling "pigs" to certain city officer and not being shut down. Here's one - they even blamed the police for murder. And another - this guy goes so far as to call them "dipshits". And one more to shut you up - this is an entire blog dedicated to finding "pigs". Do I agree with them? No. But you don't see these sites being shut down or their owners being thrown in jail, do you? Freedom of the speech is worthless if you use it to offend doesn't matter who you offending and for. Not that i'm defending Russia which is well known for being "free". "Free speech is intended to protect the controversial and even outrageous word; and not just comforting platitudes too mundane to need protection. - Colin Powell
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
|
mdma
|
 |
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2008, 10:07:44 AM » |
|
Butters, you missed my point. Otherwise you would show me American blogs calling blacks names and evidence that blog owners are not jailed. Even Stormfront where you got subscription got certain rules of posting.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
notin
|
|
|
Jericoacoara
Hero Member
   
Karma: +68/-11
Posts: 895
Fortaleza IAP 1.0
|
 |
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2008, 02:01:35 PM » |
|
I found a really good article on this particular case which explains both positions fairlty well.I highlighted the argument used by the blogger that the police are like any other group in the world and should not be exempt from being called names. I guess this is the crux of the case, is the blogger abusing the police and calling it names, or trying to incite violence against the police. For instance, if I write on a blog "I hate the police and wish they were dead. They should be burnt in the town square every wednesday". Is this inciting violence or merely blowing off some steam against the police and demonstrating my anarchic type thinking? This is where the distinction between inciting violence and abusing someone becomes murkly. For sure a citizen does not have the right to advocate violence against the police because this would be a complete breakdown against public order, but he should have the right to critisize any group in a blog. http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373222Last week, a blogger in the Komi Republic was convicted of “inciting hatred or enmity.” Some observers fear that the case sets a dangerous precedent for curtailing freedom of speech on the Internet. Other observers have gone farther, predicting that the authorities are planning to impose more systematic Internet controls and limitations. In February 2007 Savva Terentiev, a 28-year-old musician from the city of Syktyvkar, located in the Komi Republic more than 900 miles north of Moscow, wrote on a friend’s blog on the LiveJournal portal that the police were “dumb, uneducated representatives of the animal world” and should be burned periodically in town squares “like at Auschwitz” (New York Times, July  . The following month, police raided the apartment where Terentiev was living and later charged him with violating Part One of Article 282 of Russia’s Criminal Code, which concerns “actions aimed at the incitement of national, racial, or religious enmity, abasement of human dignity, and also propaganda of the exceptionality, superiority, or inferiority of individuals by reason of their attitude to religion, national, or racial affiliation.” On July 7, after a 10-month trial, Terentiev was found guilty and received a one-year suspended jail sentence (Reuters, July 7; Rossiiskaya gazeta, July 9). After Terentiev’s prosecution was launched, he wrote an open letter to President Dmitry Medvedev stating, “It is our duty to take responsibility for words on the Internet, but...I did not call for the inflaming of social hatred toward the employees of the police department” (Reuters, July 7). Noting that Savva Terentiev was accused of “inciting hatred and enmity toward a social group,” Aleksandr Privalov, research editor for Ekspert magazine, questioned the use of Article 282 in prosecuting him. “ The police are not a social group that needs to be protected from a scoundrel propagandizing hatred and enmity toward it,” wrote Privalov. “The police are people who are hired by society for its–society’s–protection. If these people do their job badly (and they often do it not simply badly, but criminally badly--even officially, four thousand criminal cases are brought against policemen annually), then the society that is badly protected by them has the complete right to call them names. If obscenity is used, fine [the user] according to Russian Federation Code of Administrative Offenses. If threats are made,…punish [those who made them]. But simply for the fact that someone strongly dislikes you? And tomorrow bandits and raiders will demand jail sentences for inciting hatred toward their social groups” (Ekspert, July 14). Some Russian press freedom advocates have said that criminal cases against bloggers like Savva Terentiev will not be sufficient to limit free speech on the Internet and have suggested that the authorities will act more systematically to do so. “There are only two possibilities for limiting free speech on the Internet: the former Cuban and the current Chinese variants,” Igor Yakovenko, secretary of the Union of Russian Journalists, told Novye izvestia. “The Cuban [variant] was where the citizens did not have the right to have a computer without special permission. The Chinese [variant] is where owners of computers are forbidden from using certain words.” Likewise, Alexei Simonov, chairman of Glasnost Protection Foundation, said such criminal cases are simply sporadic “demonstrations of intentions” by the powers-that-be. “I don’t think that the authorities will be able to limit freedom on the Internet this way,” he said. “But since the authorities will still need to exert influence on the Internet, they will choose more massive and repressive means of influence, as they did, for example, with NTV and TV-6” (Novye izvestia, July 14). NTV, which was the flagship of Vladimir Gusinsky’s Media-Most empire, was taken over by Gazprom, the state-controlled natural gas monopoly, in 2001, while TV-6, another privately-controlled television channel, was shut down by the Russian authorities in 2002. On July 11, just a few days after Savva Terentiev’s conviction, Interior Minister Rashid Nurgaliev said that the Interior Ministry, Federal Security Service (FSB) and Justice Ministry should work with the parliament on legislation designating the Internet as “a means of mass information, with all the legal consequences that flow from that for holders of subversive websites” ( www.newsru.com, July 11). Last February Vladimir Slutsker, a member of the Federation Council, the upper house of Russia’s parliament, introduced legislation that would force domestic websites with more than 1,000 daily visitors to register as media outlets and thereby make them subject to the same regulations as other media, including the restrictive law on extremism (see EDM, April 7). President Dmitry Medvedev claims to support free speech on the Internet. “It’s possible to go on to the Internet and get basically anything you want,” he said in an interview with Reuters last month. “In that regard, there are no problems of closed access to information in Russia today; there weren’t any yesterday; and there won’t be any tomorrow” (Reuters, July 7). In an earlier comment, however, Medvedev was somewhat more equivocal, stressing the need to “respect the law.” The answer to “the delicate question of the relationship between freedom of speech and responsibility” in cyberspace, he said during a forum devoted to the Internet in April, “is fairly simple: laws must be respected everywhere … at the same time, the state should take a calm, fair position” toward Internet users (see EDM, April 7). As the Savva Terentiev case demonstrates, views of what constitutes “a calm, fair position” can differ, and Russian law frequently proves to be a flexible tool for limiting rights rather than protecting them.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The greatest tragedy is for a person to die with the music still within them.
|
|
|
|