Madman
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« on: July 07, 2008, 06:42:54 PM » |
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The purpose of genocidal studies is to determine what it is, how to foresee it, how to prevent it, and what the causes are...among others. For now I wish to discuss the ideas of the causes of genocide. I have read articles that argue that in the past religion has generally provided the justification for the perpetrators of the genocide. It is believed that now democracy causes the justification of current genocides. Mainly the idea of doing good for the population, or the people. Example: The Hutu's in the 1994 Rwandan genocide believe that cleansing the population of Tutsi's would be better for the rest of Rwanda. Thoughts, opinions, rants welcome
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Ahkenaten
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Professor of Angular Mil and Applied Narcotics
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2008, 06:58:58 AM » |
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It is believed that now democracy causes the justification of current genocides. Mainly the idea of doing good for the population, or the people. Example: The Hutu's in the 1994 Rwandan genocide believe that cleansing the population of Tutsi's would be better for the rest of Rwanda. Rwanda is not an example of people using democracy to justify genocide. I don't really see where you draw the connection, it was a racial demarcation and a racially based genocide based on a civil war that was loosely connected to race. In other words it was an 'excuse' to try and wipe out one sides support that gained momentum based on perceived past injustices by one race onto another. It wouldn't have mattered if there was democracy, theocracy or monarchy. Ahk
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gommi
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2008, 11:15:51 AM » |
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I agree with Madman. It is true that democracy contributes to genocidal intent. Consider the fact that virtually all genocides are committed by the majority of a population against a hated minority. Democracy and genocide are related in the sense that they both reflect majority rule. In many impoverished countries throughout the world, citizens voluntarily elect violent demagogues to power who promise to challenge a racial or religious minority. As an example see Robert Mugabe, who won a landslide electoral victory in 1980 and has always condoned attacks against Zimbabwe's whites, or historically look at Adolf Hitler, who received the majority of his country's votes due to anti-Jewish sentiment. By the way, welcome to the forum Madman. 
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« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 11:18:10 AM by gommi »
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\"Ideological and moral confusion are signs of a higher consciousness\".
__IAPer since 2004__
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Wiglaf
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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2008, 05:58:12 PM » |
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Hitler never received a majority of votes. He did get an office through it, however.
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. . . sometimes it seems that one has to lean into the wind to stand straight. James Welch Winter in the Blood
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,no law, no court can even do much to save it. Judge Learned Hand
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micfranklin
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2008, 02:03:20 PM » |
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Pol Pot anyone? Stalin?
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Wiglaf
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2008, 04:31:02 PM » |
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The purpose of genocidal studies is to determine what it is, how to foresee it, how to prevent it, and what the causes are...among others. For now I wish to discuss the ideas of the causes of genocide. I have read articles that argue that in the past religion has generally provided the justification for the perpetrators of the genocide. It is believed that now democracy causes the justification of current genocides. Mainly the idea of doing good for the population, or the people. Example: The Hutu's in the 1994 Rwandan genocide believe that cleansing the population of Tutsi's would be better for the rest of Rwanda. Thoughts, opinions, rants welcome
Madman, would you care to actually examine recent genocides to prove the ludicrous religion as chronic apologist theory? Certainly some who've claimed to be religious have apologized for some genocides, but your claim is altogether more ambitious. Far better and more productive, I'd say, to examine the quietism of the West in response to such genocides which tacitly encourages them to continue.
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. . . sometimes it seems that one has to lean into the wind to stand straight. James Welch Winter in the Blood
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,no law, no court can even do much to save it. Judge Learned Hand
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PinkTickingClocks
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Be always at war with your vices.
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2008, 07:33:48 PM » |
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I firmly believe that genocide is a tool used by government or whom ever is trying to gain power. It is a way of creating or differentiating those who "belong" and the outsiders. Thus, strengthening things like nationalism in a time of crisis and political instability. Obviously genocide is in no way a good thing, don't get me wrong, it's just an extreme.
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If only the transcendent moments were as timeless as a broken clock.
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mdma
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2008, 08:23:15 PM » |
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Any genocide we know came with heave nationalist propaganda from more than six million of European Jews to smallest genocides in Africa where one tribe cleansed another. Any of them has strong religious basis even if that atheist fanaticism like in Tibetan genocide by Chinese.
You can prevent it by having democratic country and democratically chosen made of decent ppl government. You can prevent it by having strong ppl in your country that if ever blame but only themselves. This is nation's quality in general, number of foreigners within nation or near by territories and current status of that nation what we should examine in order to understand who is near genocide and who is not. For example it is hard to believe that Canada is near genocide while Russia is closer than any Russian think.
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Wiglaf
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2008, 06:18:47 AM » |
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Any genocide we know came with heave nationalist propaganda from more than six million of European Jews to smallest genocides in Africa where one tribe cleansed another. Any of them has strong religious basis even if that atheist fanaticism like in Tibetan genocide by Chinese.
You can prevent it by having democratic country and democratically chosen made of decent ppl government. You can prevent it by having strong ppl in your country that if ever blame but only themselves. This is nation's quality in general, number of foreigners within nation or near by territories and current status of that nation what we should examine in order to understand who is near genocide and who is not. For example it is hard to believe that Canada is near genocide while Russia is closer than any Russian think.
Democracy doesn't necessarily prevent it though. America committed it as a 19th century democracy against many native tribes, and we allied ourselves in the 20th with a Cambodian government which committed it as part of our geopolitical chess game. I'd love it if democracy were the whole answer, but it isn't when a majority want genocide or the perceived or real benefits from it. P.S. I still haven't seen a decent case for this "religion as near universal cause" theory.
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. . . sometimes it seems that one has to lean into the wind to stand straight. James Welch Winter in the Blood
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,no law, no court can even do much to save it. Judge Learned Hand
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mdma
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2008, 08:02:35 AM » |
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USA of 19th century was as democratic as Iran today. I agree that democratic country can commit/support external genocides but it cannot have an internal one, like most of known genocides were.
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Wiglaf
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2008, 04:40:00 PM » |
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USA of 19th century was as democratic as Iran today. I agree that democratic country can commit/support external genocides but it cannot have an internal one, like most of known genocides were.
Incidentally, if one uses the U.N. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide we were coming quite near to it if not violating it as late as the 40s with our "Indian schools"(Article 2b. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.). Australia's aboriginal "Stolen Generations" of most of the 20th century fit this definition too. Certainly 18th and 19th century enslavement of Ameican blacks was a violation of Article 2b (Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group). So I'd have to say democratic nations are capable of both internal and external acts meeting one of the most accepted definitions of "genocide" loathe as we may be to admit it. Largely unlimited white male suffrage seems far more likely to reflect some modicum of popular will than voting lists vetted by unelected religious "Guardians". I'd also say you've got to view it in the context of the times. Democracy was a rarer and more fragile experiment worldwide and America's embrace of what had been a boilerplate phrase in saying "all men are created equal" was very imperfect compared to today's standards. I have hope that Iran's quasi-democratic institutions will develop into a democracy in a similar way to the British Parliament's gradual growth as a focus of an increasing measure of popular will. Certainly that government is closer to true democracy than those in most of the Islamic world despite its manifold flaws. I'd remind people that these things aren't easily achieved and every nation that has a democracy has had to find its own way to get there, most with numerous detours on that path(France's rocky path toward it is fairly typical).
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. . . sometimes it seems that one has to lean into the wind to stand straight. James Welch Winter in the Blood
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,no law, no court can even do much to save it. Judge Learned Hand
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El Cid
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2008, 06:56:34 PM » |
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"Genocide" is nothing more than a new word for a very old practice. In fact, most ancient warfare would arguably be classified as genocidal in nature by today's standards. Biblical records, for one, are rife with episodes of mass slaughter that'd make the Third Reich shudder. Remember when the Israelites "visited" the land of the Midianites? Moses ordered his people to massacre those free lovin' hippies, for no good reason other than that they lived and worshiped differently than his people. And when his soldiers went soft and spared the women, children, and old people, Moses got ticked off and ordered them to kill all the old folks, kids, and non-virginal womenfolk, pronto! The surviving virgins (who, given the time period, couldn't have been older than fourteen or fifteen years old) were then distributed to his faithful followers, presumably for them to rape and murder for their own pleasure. The Bible is full of crap like that. And when Troy fell to the Greeks, they didn't negotiate a surrender or issue sanctions; they massacred the population in their sleep and wrecked the place. The Romans exterminated anything that moved when they sacked Carthage, then leveled the entire city and sowed salt into the Earth so nothing would ever grow there again. Genocide is normal, always has been. The difference between then and now is mainly that today we have a global media apparatus to spread the word whenever Tribe A wants to wipe out Tribe B, and the attitudes of people (at least people in the West) have changed on the subject, or at least we're able to pretend as such so long as it suits us.
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