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Author Topic: FBI profiling Muslim Americans  (Read 685 times)
mdma
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« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2008, 12:10:38 PM »

A) Making sure the people you kill are terrorists doesn't slow down the system. If you just start killing the people you capture you run the risk of killing someone who is innocent, which tends to just people off, regardless of race or creed.
No one meant to kill them but question and interrogate at best. Maybe we read differently what OP posted.

My lord? I'm an atheist, so don't peg the crusades, holocaust and God knows what else on me.
Honey, you forget that ppl do generalize and group. This is our nature.

Also, the fact that you're still holding me and the rest of my race responsible for not stopping what white people did 1500 years ago only reveals the depth of your stupidity. Individuals have a responcibility to themselves and their blood. Everything else is charity.
Then the most of the world is stupid! Most important i've never said i disagree with you but shown you other perspective.



But you still think the global Catholic population had a responcibility to go to Vietnam to stop them... so I guess it's pointless to even argue this. You're delusional.
Christian population.


And the moderates are supposed to... what? Sink to that level and kill the radicals?
Never met a moderate, are you one of them?

Because I don't control the actions of the other 300,000,000+ people that live in my country!
You can affect votes by proving your point. Once again your country full of fools and you are part of small minority. this was sarcasm to make it clear.

So even though you disagree, you still feel responsible?
I do feel responsible for what my government does because me as person do nothing to stop them. So as you.

I'm an atheist, so we can cut this "your lord" crap.
You look like a Sunday church boy to me.

I'm more "learned" then you give me credit for.
Do you speak any foreign language at least as i speak yours?
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neorealist
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« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2008, 02:39:34 PM »

Have random searches or racial profiling stopped any plots? I wasn't able to find any examples, but I'm not the best at searches. I'm curious.

I don't think type of sensitive information is publicly available on the net.
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mdma
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« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2008, 09:34:46 PM »

Also if it available online it doesn't necessarily means it is truth.
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Abraxas
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« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2008, 09:36:47 AM »

A) Making sure the people you kill are terrorists doesn't slow down the system. If you just start killing the people you capture you run the risk of killing someone who is innocent, which tends to just people off, regardless of race or creed.

No one meant to kill them but question and interrogate at best. Maybe we read differently what OP posted.

I meant the people we have in captivity.

You implied giving them a trial slows down the proccess of killing terrorists.

I said giving them a trial ensures they are terrorists.

Quote from: mdma
My lord? I'm an atheist, so don't peg the crusades, holocaust and God knows what else on me.

Honey, you forget that ppl do generalize and group. This is our nature.

Doesn't make it right.

You're the only Isreali Jew I know.

I'm not gonna start thinking the country is full of people like you, am I?

Just cause the radical Muslims make the news more often doesn't mean I think every man with a robe is hiding a dynamite belt under it. I don't generalize Arabs as being terrorists.

You obviously and legitimately have a very different perspective because of where you've grown up.

Quote from: mdma
Also, the fact that you're still holding me and the rest of my race responsible for not stopping what white people did 1500 years ago only reveals the depth of your stupidity. Individuals have a responcibility to themselves and their blood. Everything else is charity.

Then the most of the world is stupid! Most important i've never said i disagree with you but shown you other perspective.

This other "perspective" is to... what? To not feel bad about or try to stop this "fundemental" idea that Muslims are terrorists?

Sorry. That's not "a perspective". That's ignorance.

Quote from: mdma
But you still think the global Catholic population had a responcibility to go to Vietnam to stop them... so I guess it's pointless to even argue this. You're delusional.

Christian population.

Are you aware of how many people "Christian" encompasses?

I doubt a bunch of Lutherans or Methodists are going to try and stop Catholics from looking bad.

Quote from: mdma
And the moderates are supposed to... what? Sink to that level and kill the radicals?

Never met a moderate, are you one of them?

Alright, I get it, you don't like Arab Muslims... but your choice to not see "moderates" is your own.

Quote from: mdma
Because I don't control the actions of the other 300,000,000+ people that live in my country!

You can affect votes by proving your point. Once again your country full of fools and you are part of small minority. this was sarcasm to make it clear.

So do you believe individuals are responsible or not?

Quote from: mdma
So even though you disagree, you still feel responsible?

I do feel responsible for what my government does because me as person do nothing to stop them. So as you.

Admirable... but foolish.

My vote is just one. I do what I can by voting for people *I* think are the best choice and engaging people in conversation that want it.

Quote from: mdma
I'm an atheist, so we can cut this "your lord" crap.

You look like a Sunday church boy to me.

I'll refrain from sharing what I think you look like.

Quote from: mdma
I'm more "learned" then you give me credit for.

Do you speak any foreign language at least as i speak yours?

Is the number of languages a person speaks indicative of their intelegence?

What does your ability to speak broken English prove? That you know more foreign languages then I do?

Congratualtions.

But can you explain and determine the magnetic field B of a solenoid with length L and radius R? Can you tell me the standard operating procedure of a ship-board vaccum-flash distiller? And can you tell me the best way to get to "The Blue Crab Grill" if I'm traveling southbound on I-95?

Basically, my point is that measuring the depths of a persons knowledge goes beyond cataloging what they do and do not know.

I guess I'm at least smart enough to know that...
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mdma
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« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2008, 10:36:21 AM »

I meant the people we have in captivity.
You implied giving them a trial slows down the proccess of killing terrorists.
I said giving them a trial ensures they are terrorists.
No i implied that there is nothing wrong with profiling American Muslims after recent events. You probably missed original post.


Doesn't make it right.
You're the only Isreali Jew I know.
I'm not gonna start thinking the country is full of people like you, am I?
Same same

Just cause the radical Muslims make the news more often doesn't mean I think every man with a robe is hiding a dynamite belt under it. I don't generalize Arabs as being terrorists.
You obviously and legitimately have a very different perspective because of where you've grown up.
You see you generalize yourself as self defense.


This other "perspective" is to... what? To not feel bad about or try to stop this "fundemental" idea that Muslims are terrorists?
Sorry. That's not "a perspective". That's ignorance.
If you simplify that for your low level thinking then OK but what i say is different. Once again for you, after recent events there is nothing wrong double checking Muslims for terrorism. You probably done no army and never been a part of law forces but think out of your retarded anarchical box for a minute. If you were an anti-terrorist unit wouldn't you start from Muslim religious places? Labeling is wrong but Muslim earned that label. Look for numbers, out of all the world Muslim terrorist activity is above any possible average.


Are you aware of how many people "Christian" encompasses?
1/3 of the world

Alright, I get it, you don't like Arab Muslims... but your choice to not see "moderates" is your own.
I dislike religious who kill in the name of everyone's GOD. It has nothing to do with moderates. There are no moderate i know simply because moderates never speak.


So do you believe individuals are responsible or not?
You are responsible for American governments actions in my eyes as you are American. Republican voters are responsible for Bush's actions in your eyes as they are republican and choose him. So you either not responsible for choosing your government which makes you living in totalitarian regime or you are responsible for it as i claimed.

So even though you disagree, you still feel responsible?
Admirable... but foolish.
If you could think you would understand this doesn't change a thing to foreigner whether you disagree but feel responsible or disagree and blame.

My vote is just one. I do what I can by voting for people *I* think are the best choice and engaging people in conversation that want it.

If you had ideals you would join politics and affect by proving your point. You just use your right to vote but it has nothing to do with ability to affect.

I'll refrain from sharing what I think you look like.
Why not?

Is the number of languages a person speaks indicative of their intelegence?
What does your ability to speak broken English prove? That you know more foreign languages then I do?
Congratualtions.
This was a reply to your criticisms of my English here and there.


But can you explain and determine the magnetic field B of a solenoid with length L and radius R? Can you tell me the standard operating procedure of a ship-board vaccum-flash distiller? And can you tell me the best way to get to "The Blue Crab Grill" if I'm traveling southbound on I-95?
Basically, my point is that measuring the depths of a persons knowledge goes beyond cataloging what they do and do not know.
I guess I'm at least smart enough to know that...
This is your job to count magnetic fields, languages at least spoken ones are not mine. That's the difference, even though my remark was for your sarcastic comments about my grammar mistakes and not intelligence.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 10:38:54 AM by mdma » Logged

notin
Jericoacoara
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« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2008, 03:09:43 PM »

I have a couple of other points to make.

Higher probability, possibly. But see what can be said if bill smith from Canada is the one who blows up a train station and the Syrian Muslim was nothing more than just a regular person going about their business? Was all that profiling still worth it?

Well, practically speaking, you are not going to devote all your resources to just muslims. Security agencies keep their eyes and ears open for anything suspicious and will investigate any security threat, not just muslim based one.

But unfortunately muslims pose the greatest security threat at the moment, because of the actions of a radical minority. So it makes sense to concentrate more on the risk areas. It doesn't mean you ignore the non risk areas, you just concentrate more on the higher risk.


Quote
Of course if you're profiling just Muslims based on the criteria in the OP it's pretty likely you'll alienate them anyway

Not necessarily. It depends what you do and how you do it. If you start persecuting every single muslim and kicking their door down because they are muslim, you are more likely tha not pee them off and the exercise will be counter productive. So, like I said in my post, you have to use tact and discretion in what you do.

I would think the majority of muslims would accept that they would get more scrutiny than the average john doe. It is an unfortunate part of sharing a religion with some radical extremists. It is the behaviour of the extremist muslims who have made it tougher for all the innocent ones. Remember, we don't scrutinise muslims because of the way they pray or their long beard etc, we do it because an extremist minority of them blows up buildings and people etc.



Quote
As for the plot, do you remember when this was because I never saw it on the news anywere.

I did a thread about it at the time. Here is one article about it  Smiley

Quote
COUNTER-terrorist officers have raided at least four Melbourne homes after uncovering evidence that Islamic extremists were planning attacks on prominent city landmarks.

The raids followed a 10-month investigation during which ASIO officers and police tracked a number of known extremists as they made a series of road trips between Sydney and Melbourne.
At least one member of the group was observed taking video footage of two Melbourne train stations and the Australian Stock Exchange in Collins Street.

When questioned earlier by agents, the suspect admitted he was filming the buildings but claimed he needed the footage to help him train as a taxi driver.

The ASIO officers, armed with warrants and supported by armed police, entered homes across Melbourne yesterday searching for evidence of terrorist-related activity.

At least four people have been questioned by ASIO in Melbourne this week as part of the investigation, named Operation Pandanus. Two others are the focus of inquiries in Sydney.

Amendments to the ASIO Act introduced last year make it illegal to reveal how the questioning of the four people was conducted, or what answers were given.

Police had believed that several of the men they had focused on in both states had conducted paramilitary training with Lashkar-e-Taiba in Afghanistan before amendments were made to counter-terrorism laws in July 2002.

One of the raids was on a private home in East Brunswick in Melbourne's inner north, a suburb that contains several of the city's more radical Muslim organisations and mosques.

A neighbour who saw the East Brunswick raid said the occupants were an "Arabic" family of five, which included two sons in their early 20s.

The neighbour claimed to have overheard Australian Federal Police officers saying they had found a weapon.

The occupants of the house last night declined to be interviewed.

Despite having authority to use force to enter the premises, no forced entry to any of the Melbourne properties was necessary.

"ASIO conducted a series of enter-and-search operations in Melbourne this morning in conjuction with Victoria Police and the Australian Federal Police," a spokeswoman for Attorney-General Philip Ruddock said last night.

"ASIO powers are used judiciously and only under warrant. Authorities took appropriate and reasonable action to secure premises in order to facilitate the execution of the warrant."

The neighbour who saw the raid on the house in Lowan Street, East Brunswick, said up to 20 police and officials in "five or six cars" spent the day at the house.

The neighbour, who asked not to be identified, said the occupants of the house were a mother and father, two sons in their early 20s and a daughter aged about 19.

The neighbour said the family had lived there for at least 10 years and mostly kept to themselves.

"They have people come at all hours of the night and they do strange things like swap cars at 1am.

"A car will pull up with three or four others and they will swap cars."

He said one of the men in the house had a long beard and occasionally wore Muslim dress.

He said the ASIO and AFP agents spent most of the day at the property searching it and speaking to the occupants.

"All the occupants were home when the police came and one arrived home later in morning - they read him something and then took him inside. They took lots of stuff away in bags."

After the police left "a carload of Arabs pulled up at the house to have a big chat".

The eight-month intelligence probe was launched after an informant contacted Victoria Police. The NSW Crime Commission and Counter Terrorism Command were also involved in the operation.

The latest raids follow a series of foiled terror attacks on Australian soil in recent years.

While five men have faced terror-related charges, three have allegedly planned to carry out the strikes.


http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15699593-2,00.html



Quote
One other thing, the last major attacks on U.S. soil before 9/11 were done by some random white guys who were Christian, 1996 Olympics and Oklahoma City if I'm not mistaken.

Thats true, there will always be exceptions.And As I said in my last post, Al Qaeda and other splinter terrorist groups are always looking to change the profile of the terrorist to get around existing terrorist profiles by security agencies. Similiar to the thwarted German bombing which had all white guys who were recent islamic converts, more and more 'white' muslim converts will be recruited and used for attempted terrorist attacks in the future. The profiling process is a constant moving one and it is sometimes like a game of cat and mouse.


Incidentally, I should also make the point that your article(a really interesting one I may add  Smiley) is all about police and security agency powers than racial profiling as such.

Racial profiling is not as important as how the security agencies act upon it. You want to be vigilinte but you don't want to bring Mccarthyism back.

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Jericoacoara
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« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2008, 03:29:34 PM »

Have random searches or racial profiling stopped any plots? I wasn't able to find any examples, but I'm not the best at searches. I'm curious.

It sort of depends how loose your definition of 'racial profiling" is?

The majority of terrorist bombing plots that have been stopped, that I have read about, have been investigated by the security agencies in the planning stage before the attempted bombing took place. So there would be some sort of racial profiling done in the investigation somewhere. Putting an undercover person is a mosque could be classed as religious profiling, depending what your defination is.

In Australia, we even go further than racial or religious profiling, we actually profile the mosques. There are generally two type of mosques. The majority are where peaceful muslims come to pray. There are a minority though that preach extremism, get involved with politics and are nothing more than a jihad recruitment centre.

What the Australian Government did was to bring in a law whereby all muslim preachers must be registered and licensed. So similiar to accountants, lawyers etc anyone wanting to preach islam must be licensesed. We gave the muslims themselves autonomy to run the registration and governing process and it is muslims preachers themselves who are in charge of it. By giving them autonomy, and trusting the good muslim preachers, we are displaying trust in them and this permeates goodwill, rather than if the government had of run the whole muslim registration themselves.

The major Sydney/Melbourne terrorist bombing that was prevented, was in part due to a muslim preacher. A muslim man who had prayed previously at a radical mosque and switched to the peaceful mosque had given information that an attack might be being planned, the muslim preacher had passed this information to the security agencies, and they investigated, eventually leading to the attack being stopped.

Whether identifying mosques as a major weapon/help to terrorism prevention, is religious profiling I am not sure. But you are targetting people and groups because of their religion so it does have elements of it. So, racial or religious profiling does have different forms. It can contain positive elements, not only negative.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 03:31:25 PM by Jericoacoara » Logged

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mdma
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« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2008, 11:02:46 PM »

I wish i had few citizens like you in my country , Jeri.
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