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Author Topic: "Let us drill..."  (Read 182 times)
Abraxas
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« on: July 29, 2008, 05:56:50 AM »

Quote from: Associated Press
BP says 2Q profit up 28 percent


LONDON - BP PLC reported a 28 percent rise in second-quarter profit on Tuesday, exceeding analyst expectations, as crude oil soared to record levels and natural gas also made big gains.
 
BP, Europe's second biggest oil producer behind Royal Dutch Shell PLC, posted profit of $9.47 billion for the three months ending June 30, up from $7.38 billion in the same period a year ago. Revenue jumped 49 percent to $110.98 billion as the price of a barrel of oil rose by around 35 percent over the quarter.

Profit would have been even higher without changes imposed by accounting rules, prompting unions to renew calls for a windfall tax on the profits of both BP and Shell.

...

Hayward, who replaced John Browne, has focused on bringing new production and refining capacity on line to improve earnings, which have lagged behind rivals such as Exxon Mobil Corp. and Shell.

...

BP makes the bulk of its profits in its upstream business, which incorporates exploration for and production of oil. Pretax profits in that division rose 52 percent to $10.8 billion.

In contrast, the downstream business, which includes refining oil and selling it at BP's 24,000 gas stations worldwide, it made a profit of just $539 million, a significant drop from the $2.7 billion it made in the same period a year earlier.

...

The strong results were less popular with union leaders, after the company earlier this year announced plans to lay off 5,000 of its 97,000 employees. Unions also point out that the huge profits come as consumers face the worst economic conditions in years, including higher energy prices to light and heat their homes.

"It is high time our government moved to stop the fuel corporates picking the pockets of the poor and needy," said Tony Woodley, a spokesman for the Unite, Britain's biggest union. "A windfall tax now would ensure the money was there to help the old and vulnerable through these tough times."

BP, however, argues that it makes less than 1 pence in profit on every liter of petrol it sells at its 1,300 filling stations across Britain. It adds that it paid $14.5 billion in taxes worldwide last year.

I realize that BP isn't an American oil company, but do you really think Exxon-Mobil and Shell - 2 companies that, according to this article, actually bring in higher earnings - are really struggling? Furthermore, what's with the lay-offs? It doesn't make sense to lay-off a portion of your staff and then reap the benefits of these ridiculous revenues!

But what concerns me the most? This nonsense about "up-stream" and "down-stream" buisness.

If I'm reading this right (please tell me if I'm not), it's more profitable to look for more places to drill then it is to actually develop on the contracts they already have. Please tell me if I'm reading this wrong. PLEASE!

This is absurd. Shocked

This is ridiculous. Angry

This is nauseating. Sad
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neue regel
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2008, 06:03:16 AM »

Quote
BP makes the bulk of its profits in its upstream business, which incorporates exploration for and production of oil. Pretax profits in that division rose 52 percent to $10.8 billion.

Makes sense. I've heard it costs about $2 or $3 to get oil out of the ground. When you're selling it for $130/barrel, nice profit.

Conversely, the oil companies only make a few pennies a gallon at the pump. It's a no-brainer.

ps: the drilling is for us, not the oil companies. I don't begrudge them a profit, though. That's what the share-holders demand.
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2008, 09:57:44 AM »

Profits up 28% - so they plan to lay off 5,000.

That sums them up perfectly.
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2008, 10:03:59 AM »

Abraxas, just as a point of information, BP is very involved in the U.S. market. ARCO is the typically cheapest gas
in our area and many of the western states.  One factor is unlike some others, they don't issue or take credit cards. Cash or ATM cards with an additional small charge for using an ATM card.  Not of any real interest, but my father retired and died before the BP merger with ARCO, but he worked as a plant manager in New Mexico, having worked himself up from a heavy equipment operator after he went to work not long after he returned from WWII, originally for Atlantic before the merger with Richfield. We use ARCO almost exclusively when in our immediate area. BTW, the Sacramento Kings arena still is named ARCO Arena.  

All that useless information being said, I think you may find this from Wickipedia of interest related to the topic.
Prior to the merger, ARCO claimed almost exclusively use Alaskan oil.  LOL, on further reading the Wikipedia
article, other than the comments about my father, it appears most of the same info is included in the article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARCO  
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Abraxas
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2008, 11:02:38 AM »

Makes sense. I've heard it costs about $2 or $3 to get oil out of the ground. When you're selling it for $130/barrel, nice profit.

Conversely, the oil companies only make a few pennies a gallon at the pump. It's a no-brainer.

But profits from "down-stream" buisness (selling gas) went DOWN by almost 70% and profits from "up-stream" buisness (looking for more places to drill) went UP by almost 60%.

It's a total role reversal, here. We want less drilling and cheaper gas.

What gives?
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 11:12:31 AM »

it's more profitable to look for more places to drill then it is to actually develop on the contracts they already have.

Exactly, which is why McCain's "drill more" plan is just a profit giveaway to oil companies.
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neue regel
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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2008, 11:44:12 AM »

Quote
BP makes the bulk of its profits in its upstream business, which incorporates exploration for and production of oil.

Let's be clear...there is no profit in looking, there is profit in production of oil.

Quote
Exactly, which is why McCain's "drill more" plan is just a profit giveaway to oil companies.

What is a 'profit giveaway?'
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Gojira
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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2008, 01:07:15 PM »

But what concerns me the most? This nonsense about "up-stream" and "down-stream" buisness.

If I'm reading this right (please tell me if I'm not), it's more profitable to look for more places to drill then it is to actually develop on the contracts they already have. Please tell me if I'm reading this wrong. PLEASE!

This "up-stream" non-sense you speak of is simply better exploration technology in finding ways to get cheaper oil without spending exorbitant amounts of dollars on dry wells just to get oil that is more expensive to refine.   

If the cost of taking the oil out of already existing wells exceeds the futures price per barrel of crude, then it is obvious that oil companies will not pursue production of this oil until the future price reaches even higher.  When looking at BPs 2008 Q2 results, you find that most of the "replacement cost of their profit" was from exploration and production.   Is that bad or good?

Well, we could test the oil companies by not letting them drill in any new areas but how do we know what the expense is to produce oil from dry wells? (the "bottom-stream" nonsense)  Considering that profits were very high for oil companies while futures prices on crude were very high, it would make sense that as they search for cheaper oil they will make a killer profit.  But what if we are wrong? What if the expense of "bottom-stream" production is greater than the futures price of crude?  That means that producers will up their price on refiners who will up their price on purchasers of futures contracts for gasoline stations.  What you get is not $130/per barrel but $200/per barrel.  (Assuming thats how much it would cost to take it out of the ground, but we don't know)

Are you willing to take that risk?  Since Americans are the ones who love to use the stuff and not tax it like our European or Japanese counterparts, I would think that we would like to see oil companies get as much drilling exposure as they can. 

But I am not one who thinks that oil prices should stay cheap. 

Info on oil production: http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/supply_text.htm

BP's 2008 2Q Results:
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/STAGING/global_assets/downloads/B/bp_second_quarter_2008_results.pdf
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Gojira
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2008, 01:11:12 PM »

Abraxas, just as a point of information, BP is very involved in the U.S. market. ARCO is the typically cheapest gas
in our area and many of the western states.  One factor is unlike some others, they don't issue or take credit cards. Cash or ATM cards with an additional small charge for using an ATM card.  Not of any real interest, but my father retired and died before the BP merger with ARCO, but he worked as a plant manager in New Mexico, having worked himself up from a heavy equipment operator after he went to work not long after he returned from WWII, originally for Atlantic before the merger with Richfield. We use ARCO almost exclusively when in our immediate area. BTW, the Sacramento Kings arena still is named ARCO Arena. 

All that useless information being said, I think you may find this from Wickipedia of interest related to the topic.
Prior to the merger, ARCO claimed almost exclusively use Alaskan oil.  LOL, on further reading the Wikipedia
article, other than the comments about my father, it appears most of the same info is included in the article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARCO   

Your story on ARCO reminded me of this article which is interesting.  But the cause isn't the oil companies;  just rising gas prices.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=111&sid=1424332

It seems that the problem rests with the credit card companies.  Anyone like to debate who is more evil?  Grin
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Cass
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2008, 03:05:59 PM »

Gojira, is there any way to, in any manner, attempt to argue points with any objectivity?  LOL, I still use cold hard cash in the ARCO money
machines as I refuse to even pay cents to use an ATM card knowing full well before I drive away from the pump the cash will have already
electronically left my checking account.  How I wish the monthly retirement direct deposits were entered into the account so quickly.  Grin

Not objective was that? Much as I resent the costs of gas, I've lived in England and Japan as a military family member and sometimes travel in Canada so I understand the current costs are not like what others pay. 

I think I prefer to hate the bankers.  BTW, may I toss in the insurance corporations who are now also banks? IMHO they are equally as evil.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 03:08:32 PM by Cass » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2008, 05:16:08 PM »

I can't believe I'm typing this, but I'm with Neue on this one. The production and sale if barrels of oil (upstream) is highly profitable. The refining and sale of refined gasoline (downstream) is much less so, apparently.

As for cutting the work force, that's probably due to the reduction in demand due to high prices. It's to be expected. Private industry does not exist to employ people. It exists to turn a profit. It's basic free market capitalism.

I wish unions were stronger, so that the work force was able to share in the massive profits more than they do. But that's another issue.
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Gojira
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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2008, 01:17:09 PM »

Gojira, is there any way to, in any manner, attempt to argue points with any objectivity?  LOL, I still use cold hard cash in the ARCO money
machines as I refuse to even pay cents to use an ATM card knowing full well before I drive away from the pump the cash will have already
electronically left my checking account.  How I wish the monthly retirement direct deposits were entered into the account so quickly.  Grin

Not objective was that? Much as I resent the costs of gas, I've lived in England and Japan as a military family member and sometimes travel in Canada so I understand the current costs are not like what others pay. 

I think I prefer to hate the bankers.  BTW, may I toss in the insurance corporations who are now also banks? IMHO they are equally as evil.

I unfortunately, am quite the opposite.  I don't carry cash on me anymore.  In fact, the things I hate the most is when a store doesn't take debit or credit.  I am lenient to individual restaurants who have minimum charges because I like to eat a lot. 

In those other countries, I didn't have to worry about those costs.  I biked.  They even made me register it too so I didn't have to buy an $80 dollar bike lock like the one I have now to make sure no one steals it.

It completely phased me in the states until I realized bicycles was the best thing since diet coke.

Car
Benefit: a little bit of freedom, blast tunes out my window, Air Conditioning
Costs: Expensive gas, expensive insurance, expensive parking, and expensive maintenance
Travel time: 15 minutes

Public Transportation
Benefit: get to read, get some exercise walking to and from
Costs: a cheap fair per ride that gets pricey when accumulated in a month, rely on volatile schedules because public transpo sucks that way
Travel time: 30 - 45 minutes depending on how lucky you are

Bike
Benefit: lose a lot of weight, completely free including when you do your own maintenance
Costs: bus exhaust in the face,
Travel time: 25 minutes, a little sweaty in 20 minutes

I think the choice is obvious here.  And thats an objective statement.  Grin

BTW, I hate those pesky banking institutions.  Calling you at the worst time to tell you that a) your payment wasn't received so you get charged a late fee  b) tell you about a new policy change that happened 6 months before and that required you to do something or else you get a miscellaneous charge that is of course back logged the 6 months, and then they have the audacity to say "What, you didn't get the letter?" c) some identify theif stole your money, sorry for the inconvenience sir while we ruin your life a little more and d) sir, we gladly waived that late fee for you but when we rcvd your 2nd attempt to make a pmt, the 1st attempt went through as well and so now you double paid, since your checkbook bounced there is nothing we can do about it, you will have to take it up with your other institution, have a nice day! Good luck getting your money back!


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Cass
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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2008, 02:05:04 PM »

Gojira, I agree. I see you live in Philly.  Lived there in '55 & '56. My oldest daughter was born there. Never owned
a car there then. It was too much of a pain. Used public trans. or walked. Same for England in the early '60s and
Japan in the from '67-'70.  Guess by now you can understand that being almost 73 with some really bad joints, I
don't walk that much nor bike anymore.  Originally from the Lone Star State and a CA resident now for 38+ years,
I would insult my native state residents along with my adopted ones for having made the choices long ago to build their cities and burbs designed around the combustion engine. Then large areas with long distances to go appear to have had that tendency. 

Put my refusal to give ARCO nor my banker a dime I don't have to as a personal goal in life. So the debit card in the pocket, especially for an elderly female is the way to go, to also avoid purse snatching. Need cash away from my bankers ATM?  At least a small purchase at a supermarket gets me back cash with no ridiculous charge. Call me cheap or maybe the nicer term, just frugal, but we who were born in the '30s, LOL, yeah the 1930s, were raised with the concept that penneys add up to dollars.  Real problem is the dollars aren't worth very much anymore.

And again I'm way OT. But if any of our fellow posters can figure out a way to be able to totally avoid, the oil corps, the bankers and the insurance corps, I would appreciate any and all suggestions.
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\\"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die.\\"  Edward Kennedy, U.S.
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The old lion of the Senate, though a lion in winter, has lived to do more for this nation than John or Bobby though
who knows what life would be like now had they lived.
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