IAP Political Forum
January 09, 2009, 12:46:14 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Default theme has been changed, and everyone reset due to some problems with posts disappearing after submitting.
 
   Home   Blog Forum   Help Search Chat Login Register  
Digg This!
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 8   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Here's a plan  (Read 2036 times)
neue regel
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +64/-297
Posts: 1,977



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2008, 09:43:01 AM »

Quote
Maybe if you knew what the hell you were talking about, you'd know that fathers gone, broken families and unwanted pregnancies come from bad education, low wage jobs and no jobs at all.

One would think that if that's true, then we would have seen a spike like none other during the Great Depression.

Is that true?

ps: what do the 3 things you have cited have to do with fathers being absent from the home? What does a low wage job have to do with carelessly sticking your dingus in a girl you met at the mall?
Logged
Irwin
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +49/-104
Posts: 1,168


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2008, 10:57:13 AM »

Quote
Maybe if you knew what the hell you were talking about, you'd know that fathers gone, broken families and unwanted pregnancies come from bad education, low wage jobs and no jobs at all.

One would think that if that's true, then we would have seen a spike like none other during the Great Depression.

Is that true?

ps: what do the 3 things you have cited have to do with fathers being absent from the home? What does a low wage job have to do with carelessly sticking your dingus in a girl you met at the mall?

LOL! You actually think that there wasn't such a spike? Have you ever read or seen anything about the Depression outside the Waltons? The fact is, accurate records were not kept till the 50s but there is plenty of evidence of spikes especially in crime.

The murder rate of the 1930s was not equaled until the 70s and 80s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate

But I wanted to answer this question of yours: What did we ever do before the New Deal? "Prior to Social Security, it was common to see old people starving in the streets after they retired. Social Security largely eliminated this shameful sight."

Did you say welfare increases poverty?

Poverty rates (Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census, Current Population Reports, P-60 series.)

1959   22.4%
1960   22.2  < recession year
1961   21.9
1962   21.0
1963   19.5
1964   19.0  < Johnson's Great Society begins (watch the poverty rate drop faster.)
1965   17.3
1966   14.7
1967   14.2
1968   12.8
1969   12.1
1970   12.6  < recession year
1971   12.5
1972   11.9
1973   11.1
1974   11.2  < recession year
1975   12.3  < recession year> (The 1975 SUN-PAC decision legalized corporate political action committees, and corporate activism in Washington soared. Corporate lobbyists wasted no time scaling back the New Deal and the Great Society.)
1976   11.8  < individual benefits level off, decline > Watch the poverty level rise.
1977   11.6
1978   11.4
1979   11.7
1980   13.0  < recession year
1981   14.0  < Reagan-era cuts in individual benefits
1982   15.0  < recession year
1983   15.2
1984   14.4
1985   14.0
1986   13.6
1987   13.4
1988   13.0
1989   12.8
1990   13.5  < recession year
1991   14.2  < recession year
1992   14.8
1993   15.1

"Conservatives object that this [drop in poverty] has been accompanied by enormous social costs: rising crime, teenage motherhood, child poverty, the disintegration of families, the deterioration of the black community, etc. But there are more compelling explanations for these trends than the modest increases in welfare. As for the rise of crime, Dr. Brandon Centerwall has produced one of the most famous studies, which found that the mere introduction of television into a region causes its crime rate to double as soon as the first television generation comes of age. (13) As for teenage motherhood, many would be surprised to learn it was actually a greater problem in the 50s, not the 80s. (14) Child poverty can be tied to single motherhood, but the reasons why these mothers are poor is because women are still paid less than men, and half of all fathers who are supposed to pay child support don't honor their commitments. (15) The divorce rate has doubled since the 60s, but this is a sociological trend, not an economic one. Polls show that more marriages are happier today than in the 50s, largely because men and women are no longer trapped in bad marriages by the stigma of divorce. (16) As for the deepening despair of large parts of the black community, much of this can be traced to "white flight" (and job flight) from the inner cities, as well as the redlining of neighborhood districts, which has left blacks fighting for survival in economically depressed ghettoes. The point is that conservatives face an insurmountable challenge if they wish to turn welfare into a "black box" that explains all of America's social problems."

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfarepoverty.htm

Logged
Irwin
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +49/-104
Posts: 1,168


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2008, 11:12:54 AM »

ps: what do the 3 things you have cited have to do with fathers being absent from the home? What does a low wage job have to do with carelessly sticking your dingus in a girl you met at the mall?

Yeah, that's how it must look from your ivory republican tower.
Logged
neue regel
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +64/-297
Posts: 1,977



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2008, 11:31:36 AM »

Quote
Yeah, that's how it must look from your ivory republican tower.

Your non-answer is answer enough.

Thank you. And thanks for supporting Michael Jackson.
Logged
Cass
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +23/-62
Posts: 656



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2008, 12:25:09 PM »

Maybe Irwin those who live in denial about the actual economic circumstances of families and the daily difficulties they face, have yet to realize, the various programs continue to increase, even with the stringent rules created by both Parties, to try to save some bucks to use it for corporate welfare instead. 

Locally, the news includes requests for donations to food banks who are running out of food as the result of increased demand and because the rules allow the entities who are required to take the applications for assistance on a variety of levels are allowed 45 days to respond.  It isn't only those who are usually considered the "impoverished," but many that would typically be considered among the "middle class" who are joining the lines at the food banks, in some cases choosing to do so, while they try to continue to hold onto their homes, fill the tank and feed their children.

No doubt some who might observe the lines, will go back to the Reagan propaganda of the past about "Welfare Cadillacs."  But, for those people, to continue to work in a location where, at a time of hardship, because of the increase of fuel costs, the public transportation availability, not really great to begin with, has now increased the prices
so it has become for some almost as costly as a local commute.

The issue are complex, but the bottom line may be to ask the question, if 8 years of this Administration has created a recession or a Hoover level Depression. BYW, the
Sacramento area is one of the largest foreclosure locations in the nation.  Was it all irresponsible individuals or those such as the various lenders who made equally irresponsible choices?  Will the result of a bail out for those lenders really be anything other more corporate welfare?

Logged

\\"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die.\\"  Edward Kennedy, U.S.
Senator

The old lion of the Senate, though a lion in winter, has lived to do more for this nation than John or Bobby though
who knows what life would be like now had they lived.
jpn of Seattle
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +243/-234
Posts: 2,094



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2008, 04:37:53 PM »

Give it up Irwin.

Conservative ideology will never admit that government can be successful at anything but war.
Logged

What you got is everything-and I mean everything—run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis. --John DiIulio, former White House official
neue regel
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +64/-297
Posts: 1,977



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2008, 06:43:13 PM »

Quote
Conservative ideology will never admit that government can be successful at anything but war.

Name me something where government shows efficiency and I'll be happy to discuss.
Logged
Cass
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +23/-62
Posts: 656



View Profile
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2008, 07:23:04 PM »

neue regel, I just gave you a great one. Try Head Start.  Do you read are or you illiterate too?
Logged

\\"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die.\\"  Edward Kennedy, U.S.
Senator

The old lion of the Senate, though a lion in winter, has lived to do more for this nation than John or Bobby though
who knows what life would be like now had they lived.
And Justice For All
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +16/-8
Posts: 331



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2008, 08:18:18 PM »

Imagine that every time our economy tanks, a repubican is president.

Herbert Hoover - Great Depression
Dwight Eisenhower - 1957 Recession
Richard Nixon - 1971 Recession
Gerald Ford - stagflation in 1973
Ronald Reagan - "Black Monday," Oct. 19, 1987
George H. W. Bush - 1991 Recession
George W. Bush - 2001 recession and 2008 recession

Logged

Alright Clanton, you called down the thunder well now you got it! The cowboys are finished, you understand me? I see a red sash I kill a man wearing it. So run you Kurr. You tell em Im coming and hells coming with me you hear. Hells coming with me!

-Wyatt Earp
Wiglaf
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +17/-10
Posts: 263



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2008, 09:54:37 PM »

Quote
Conservative ideology will never admit that government can be successful at anything but war.

Name me something where government shows efficiency and I'll be happy to discuss.
Obviously you're unaware of the economic effects of the G.I. Bill or the creation of the interstate highway system on post-World War II America.  I'm also curious which country has ever successfully educated most its citizens privately.  There are certainly other examples, but I'll let you chew on these for a while.  As a fierce advocate of school reform I certainly see plenty of places where we could do better, but has any nation done as well without governmental assistance in this vital need?
Logged

. . . sometimes it seems that one has to lean into the wind to stand straight.
James Welch Winter in the Blood

Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,no law, no court can even do much to save it.
Judge Learned Hand
Retro Fit
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +32/-37
Posts: 802


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2008, 02:11:26 AM »

Quote
But I wanted to answer this question of yours: What did we ever do before the New Deal? "Prior to Social Security, it was common to see old people starving in the streets after they retired. Social Security largely eliminated this shameful sight."

I live near Downtown Los Angeles.  Everyday I see more and more people, old ,young and middle aged starving on the streets.  It's like a damn parade of filthy, mumbling, shopping cart pushing transients walking down the street with a big urine stain on their tattered pants and crapping on the sidewalk.  Social Security is an abysmal failure because of government mis-management.  The new deal was nothing short of departmentalized socialism.  Our government is nothing more then departmentalized socialism.

Quote
Obviously you're unaware of the economic effects of the G.I. Bill or the creation of the interstate highway system on post-World War II America.  I'm also curious which country has ever successfully educated most its citizens privately.  There are certainly other examples, but I'll let you chew on these for a while.  As a fierce advocate of school reform I certainly see plenty of places where we could do better, but has any nation done as well without governmental assistance in this vital need?

  I educate my kids privately and successfully....My wife is a school teacher for the Los Angeles Unified School District.  I have met and am friends with at least 50 other teachers and/or employees of L.A.U.S.D.  Not one of them....not one..... who has kids, has them enrolled in a public school.....Not one.  You know why?  Because  public schools are hazardous.  filled with gangland kids created by the welfare system and drug prohibition , who's prison mentalities and violent nature make for a poor learning environment.  The government dropped the ball long ago...probably right after they connected Maine to California with 2 lanes of asphalt and concrete.  Every promise concerning education is broken...for example, when California voted on the Lottery we were told, "vote for the lottery, the funds will go to our schools"...What a load of crap.  This has been going on for decades.  The government does certain things right...Education is not one of them.
Logged
neue regel
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +64/-297
Posts: 1,977



View Profile
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2008, 04:52:36 AM »

Quote
interstate highway system

Not bad. Of course government uses private resources as well to maintain.

Quote
neue regel, I just gave you a great one. Try Head Start.  Do you read are or you illiterate too?

Have you read any of 'The Head Start Impact Study First Year Findings?' We average spending $7000 per Head Start child. THAT is your example of government success?

...wow...

Quote
Social Security is an abysmal failure because of government mis-management.

Exactly. What sane one of us would hire someone to manage our assets with the same results our government gets us with SS?
Logged
Opmod
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +58/-64
Posts: 730



View Profile
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2008, 06:43:50 AM »

Give it up Irwin.

Conservative ideology will never admit that government can be successful at anything but war.

Not even WAR actually.
Logged

\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
Irwin
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +49/-104
Posts: 1,168


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2008, 07:59:40 AM »

Quote
Yeah, that's how it must look from your ivory republican tower.

Your non-answer is answer enough.

Thank you. And thanks for supporting Michael Jackson.

Your sneering joke was not an argument and was treated accordingly. Your failure to answer the argument above your pathetic joke, you know the one based on census bureau statistics, shows you are a clueless dogmatic ideologue who regurgitates nonsense you can't defend on the merits.
Logged
neue regel
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +64/-297
Posts: 1,977



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2008, 08:27:13 AM »

Quote
Your sneering joke

Wasn't a joke. You said...
Quote
you'd know that fathers gone, broken families and unwanted pregnancies come from bad education, low wage jobs and no jobs at all.

I asked you what not having a job has to do with getting a girl pregnant.

Quote
one based on census bureau statistics

My argument and the findings of the Congressional panel was that welfare has been destructive to the family. Your statistics didn't address that so I felt no need to answer it.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 8   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.5 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
Joomla Bridge by JoomlaHacks.com
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.25 seconds with 25 queries.