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Author Topic: Here's a plan  (Read 2029 times)
Abraxas
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« Reply #90 on: August 11, 2008, 01:23:32 PM »

On top of all the other things you listed...you just want to volountarily ADD his plan to the top of the heap with NO CLUE on costs and the effects of those costs....I get it.

Are you talking to me or IamMe?
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Patton
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« Reply #91 on: August 11, 2008, 01:26:47 PM »

A cursory search gives us:

A study by the Rand Corporation found
that if most hospitals and doctors offices adopted electronic health records, up to $77
billion of savings would be realized each year through improvements such as reduced
hospital stays, avoidance of duplicative and unnecessary testing, more appropriate drug
utilization, and other efficiencies.

Have you read this "study?"

I haven't because you provided no link, so I couldn't scrutinize it.

Who's going to pay for the "conversions?"

We've had automation in medicine for years now....what if a company/hospital refuses to automate?

Is it cost effective for small groups to automate?

Who pays for their conversions?

What does the study say about "reduced hospital stays, avoidance of duplicative and unnecessary testing, more appropriate drug utilization, and other efficiencies" of hospitals already utilizing "automation?"

Quote
What if the Bush tax cuts are voted to remain?

With the Democrats controlling both houses?

That was my question.

Quote
Where do the "realized benefits" come from?

See above.

Automation?.....sounds like "inflating tires" to me.

Quote
No mention of outsourcing from what I can see.

Hmmmm.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 01:28:22 PM by Patton » Logged

Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood

-George S. Patton
Abraxas
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« Reply #92 on: August 11, 2008, 01:37:18 PM »

Quote
Where do the "realized benefits" come from?

See above.

Automation?.....sounds like "inflating tires" to me.

Because both are easy fixes that in the end actually save money?

I wish government would check it's tire pressure more often, then...
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
Patton
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« Reply #93 on: August 11, 2008, 01:43:18 PM »

I suppose you have the answers on automation I posted above?

Or was that a chip-shot from the peanut gallery to show everyone how witty you are?
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Abraxas
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« Reply #94 on: August 11, 2008, 02:28:48 PM »

At first, it was a cheap shot (much like your comment was), but I didn't notice the questions.

If IamMe doesn't answer them, I would be willing to take a crack at them... but right now I'm about to go to dinner.
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #95 on: August 11, 2008, 08:06:59 PM »

I did read it...and like I said....he didn't answer my questions....we can dissect this scam together....
How much will his plan cost US taxpayers?

How much more efficient, on average, is government-provided health insurance than private health insurance? It must be an impressive figure, because the cost is far less.

We dysfunctional Americans pay half again as much as everyone else because of the stubborn opposition of conservative ideologues who refuse to admit the obvious: that the reason we're paying half again as much as everyone else, while getting middling results, is because of our silly reluctance to put government in charge of providing health insurance for all of us.

(By the way, isn't Patton's sudden concern for balancing the budget touching?)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 08:08:57 PM by jpn of Seattle » Logged

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IamMe
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« Reply #96 on: August 12, 2008, 11:16:02 AM »

A cursory search gives us:

A study by the Rand Corporation found
that if most hospitals and doctors offices adopted electronic health records, up to $77
billion of savings would be realized each year through improvements such as reduced
hospital stays, avoidance of duplicative and unnecessary testing, more appropriate drug
utilization, and other efficiencies.

Have you read this "study?"

I haven't because you provided no link, so I couldn't scrutinize it.

The quote is from the documents I linked you earlier, both of which cite their sources.

Quote
Who's going to pay for the "conversions?"

We've had automation in medicine for years now....what if a company/hospital refuses to automate?

Is it cost effective for small groups to automate?

Who pays for their conversions?

This is it, these are the holes you have found? Yes it is cost effective in the long term for small groups to automate.

Why would a hospital refuse to automate?

As for who pays for it, I don't know, I would have to search through the documents, which I don't have time for right now, but I would presume the hospitals themselves would.

Quote
What does the study say about "reduced hospital stays, avoidance of duplicative and unnecessary testing, more appropriate drug utilization, and other efficiencies" of hospitals already utilizing "automation?"

Nothing, since the report is about automation.

Quote
Quote
What if the Bush tax cuts are voted to remain?

With the Democrats controlling both houses?

That was my question.

Well it isn't going to happen, is it?
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Patton
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« Reply #97 on: August 12, 2008, 11:28:20 AM »

This is it, these are the holes you have found?

Why of course not...this is just the first layer of questions concerning costs....we havn't even ventured into the other questions mentioned earlier....

As for who pays for it, I don't know

Well.....I think it only seems prudent to understand everything before jumping off the cliff.
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IamMe
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« Reply #98 on: August 13, 2008, 02:06:20 PM »

This is it, these are the holes you have found?

Why of course not...this is just the first layer of questions concerning costs....we havn't even ventured into the other questions mentioned earlier....

As for who pays for it, I don't know

Well.....I think it only seems prudent to understand everything before jumping off the cliff.

We are into minutiae here really - surely this is the sort of detail we would only get at the drafting of legislation stage?

In any case, there are two options. One is the companies pay for it themselves, the other is that the taxpayer pays for it. I see no problem with either.
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #99 on: August 25, 2008, 06:47:30 AM »

Ahk
Off the top of my head in no particular order:

-Because Americans, generally and more than most, want the option to pay more for the comforting idea that means they will get more, regardless of whether or not this is true. There. I said it.

-Canada is one of the worst performing models of health care. I am not going to parrot the rightwing socialist paranoid rantings I've heard that it's "going under" because we've heard that for 50 years and it's no more true today. The real reason Canada's health care is one of the worst performers is because of the sheer distances involved when it comes insuring everyone has access to the same level of care. Look at Belgium, Spain and the UK. The distances between remote communities and the nearest city (where supplies are kept and doctors are made) are dwarfed by the sheer expanse between remote communities in Canada and the same nearest cities. This transportation plus low population is a heavy burden on the system. Many will claim the same thing about European countries - that there is a vast distance between isolated communities and an urban center but I don't think those people are really thinking about it. How can the distance between a 'remote' UK village and the nearest urban center be anything near comparable to Canada 4-5 UK's could fit in Western Canada alone? There's no comparison. The US is also vast in this sense.

-The state-to-state system already in place in the US would create a buerocratic nightmare to start.


Ahk

Population density in the US and just about everwhere else is much much higher than in Canada, especially east of the Mississippi and the West coast.

Do you have a point besides the one at the top of your head? Yes the population desity is low -- but more to the point there is 100's of km's between the population centers. You could have 3 people on a desert island and the population density would be low but transporting anything between those three people would be easy. That's the point. Y'know -- the sheer distance, the lack of roads in many cases, the cost of air transport, not simply the number of people. You know that (maybe) but you just can't think of anything else to say to quell that overwelming urge to "say anything".

Fact of the matter is, and remains, that most countries in Europe with free health care can fit inside half of either of our nations with even more population density. The point is, for either the US or Canada is that providing that same level of health care to any citizen no matter where they live is a harder burdon here than it would be in Belgium, Spain or France. Period. I don't say it can't work, i don't say it shouldn't be done, I'm simply pointing out the realities. You're not keen enough to devine my opinion on whether it can or can't work, whether it should or shouldn't be, which explains your complete lack of anything worthwhile to say in response. I can picture you looking at my post with your head slanted to one side like a confused puppy. Slow down and read what I say instead of reading into it....and for crissakes don't start getting emotional over nothing on us again,k?



Ahk
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 06:58:29 AM by Ahkenaten » Logged
Patton
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« Reply #100 on: August 25, 2008, 06:59:18 AM »

Intresting article in the NJEM.......echoes things I've known to be true for a long time.

Some fear that medical professionals will take better-paying positions in the private sector, helping to create a "two-tier" system based on the ability of patients to pay for preferential care.
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood

-George S. Patton
jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #101 on: August 25, 2008, 06:15:51 PM »

Intresting article in the NJEM.......echoes things I've known to be true for a long time.

Some fear that medical professionals will take better-paying positions in the private sector, helping to create a "two-tier" system based on the ability of patients to pay for preferential care.

And what else have you known to be true for a long time?

That millions of American citizens have no health insurance, which for other civilized countries is a right of citizenship? Did you know that?
That those other civilized countries pay far less per capita than we do? Did you know that?
And that those other civilized countries get as good or better results that we do? Did you know that?

Or do you just know what's comfortable for you to know?
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Patton
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« Reply #102 on: August 26, 2008, 06:57:14 AM »

I understand a great deal of those "uninsured" spend $150-200/month on beer and cigarettes, cell phones, a newer car and HBO.....that is their PRIORITY....you can find health insurance for less than that....IF it was their priority.

I also know trying to compare America to countries the size of Missouri is stupid.
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood

-George S. Patton
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« Reply #103 on: August 26, 2008, 08:05:09 AM »

I understand a great deal of those "uninsured" spend $150-200/month on beer and cigarettes, cell phones, a newer car and HBO.....that is their PRIORITY....you can find health insurance for less than that....IF it was their priority.
That is one interesting fact.  You wouldn't happen to have a source?
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Who will watch the watchers?

Now that it is over, what are we going to talk about?
Patton
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« Reply #104 on: August 26, 2008, 08:10:38 AM »

Doing charity cases and taking health histories before surgery....does that count?

Smoking a pack of cigarettes a day and a six pack of beer will hit the $150-200/month with no problem.
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood

-George S. Patton
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