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Author Topic: McCain: 1 - Obama: 0  (Read 583 times)
Abraxas
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« on: August 11, 2008, 05:45:41 PM »

This conflict in Georgia is extremely interesting to me for a number of reasons.

First of all, I think it pretty much proves that the Cold War didn't end with the fall of the Soviet Union - a topic of discussion I might bring to "General Politics" when I get a chance.

Second, it shows a disturbing problem with the MSM. I've kept my eye on the news lately and local news programs don't mention it, national news programs don't explain it and the 24-hour news programs don't give it near as much air time as they should. Hell, there aren't even any coloumns, editorials or opinions in the newspaper! And because the MSM doesn't talk about it, people's interest in it is equally tepid while their understanding of it is downright void. Are the Olympics really more interesting important?

Third, it shows how quickly we fail to look at these things in context. This isn't so much Russian agression as much as it is Russia trying to come up to par with the US. To me, Russia : Georgia :: USA : Iraq (for all of those who miss those SAT questions Wink ). We're in the Middle East securing energy sources AND trying to destabalize Iran, Russia's major ally in the Middle East. This isn't Russian agression against Geargia. This is Russian agression against US interests.

McCain sees this for what it is, I think:

Quote from: Financial Times
McCain condemnation upstages Bush

It took four days and a growing chorus of criticism from conservatives before George W. Bush on Monday matched John McCain’s tough stance on Russia. Having on Monday morning again been upstaged by the Republican presidential candidate, who had called for the US administration to come together with its allies in “universal condemnation of Russian aggression” in Georgia, Mr Bush finally followed suit.

In a late afternoon statement following his return from the Olympics in Beijing, Mr Bush accused Russia of a “dramatic and brutal escalation” in Georgia with the aim of overthrowing its “duly-elected government”.

...

But it was Mr McCain who set the initial tone with a strong statement last Friday several hours before official word from the administration – and then again on Monday morning with a shopping list of tough policy responses for Mr Bush. These included shoring up support for Ukraine, which hosts Russia’s Crimean fleet, and steps to protect the Caspian pipeline that runs from Azerbaijan to Turkey via Georgia – all allies of the US.

“Russia’s aggression against Georgia is both a matter of urgent moral and strategic importance to the United States,” said Mr McCain. “The implications go beyond their threat to a democratic Georgia. Russia is using violence against Georgia, in part, to intimidate other neighbours such as Ukraine, for choosing to associate with the West.”

I think his grasp of the situation is quite good.

The human rights issue aside, Russia is hoping to halt western influence so close to their border, and while Georgia and North Ossetia are of NO actual concern to them, the conflict allows them to hurt western energy securities by threatening such an important pipeline (a bit like what we did in the Middle East, except replace "pipeline" with "oil reserves").

I personally think Russia will stop just short of invading and reclaiming Georgia cause they fear a NATO response, but this is an oppurtunity to make Russia's neighbors stand and take notice. These countries may even cut ties to western allies if they think it will limit Russian agression against them.

Russia has a lot of objectives in this fight and not one of them is to take Ukraine, IMO... but that's not what this thread is about.

This is about US politicians and their response to the issue.

The article goes on to say:

Quote from: Financial Times
By Monday Mr Bush’s initial response – which he made at the Beijing Olympics on Saturday, where he expressed “grave concern” about Moscow’s “disproportionate response” to Georgia’s troop movement – had been replaced by a more stark assessment echoing Mr McCain’s broader alarm about Russia’s intentions.

It followed conservative criticism of the administration’s allegedly tepid response to the crisis. Earlier John Bolton, the former US ambassador to the United Nations now at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington, said: “What is interesting about the US response is that you have the McCain campaign in one corner immediately understanding the significance of Russia’s aggression and in the opposite you have the Bush administration standing with the Obama campaign taking a much more diluted stance.”

For once I actually agree with that prick Bolton.

I look forward to Obama's responce... but the clock is ticking...
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 05:55:15 PM by Abraxas » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2008, 06:20:43 PM »

If it's truly just a power grab then it's still just a pissing contest as it was back in the days of the cold war that only results in thousands of lives lost and plenty more ruined. No matter how many countries each super nation beats down or takes over, in the end it really doesn't matter. Russia vs. USA only ends in mutually assured destruction as nukes rain down on each country and any country that supports either country as well. It's all just really stupid and just because McCain is captain obvious doesn't mean he gets any points in my book.
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Abraxas
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2008, 06:37:40 PM »

It's all just really stupid and just because McCain is captain obvious doesn't mean he gets any points in my book.

Then why hasn't anyone else said it?

Is Obama as stupid as Bush?
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2008, 07:58:27 PM »

Here's Obama's statement:

tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/obama_no_possible_justificatio.php
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Abraxas
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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2008, 08:01:49 PM »

I think that got cut in half... or something...
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2008, 08:34:21 PM »

1. I was calling the situation of two super nations trying to have another cold war stupid.

2.Many people have said it even before this incident. Remember when Bush wanted to set up missiles in Europe right next to Russia, but Putin said no? Well guess what Bush is going ahead with the plan anyways. In response Putin said that they may have to take nuclear action against any country who supports this US goal. From there it's been all down hill and anyone who has examined the situation knows that there is conflict between the two nations. This new situation only heightens that conflict, therefore McCain states the obvious.

3. Obama's words -

"The relationship between Russia and the West is long and complicated. There have been many turning points, for good and ill. This is another turning point. Let me be clear: we seek a future of cooperative engagement with the Russian government, and friendship with the Russian people. We want Russia to play its rightful role as a great nation - but with that role comes the responsibility to act as a force for progress in this new century, not regression to the conflicts of the past. That is why the United States and the international community must speak out strongly against this aggression, and for peace and security."

4. Obama's full opinion on the sitution found right here as JPN tried to post -

htp://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/obama_no_possible_justificatio.php
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Alright Clanton, you called down the thunder well now you got it! The cowboys are finished, you understand me? I see a red sash I kill a man wearing it. So run you Kurr. You tell em Im coming and hells coming with me you hear. Hells coming with me!

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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2008, 08:35:49 PM »

5. The spam filter is getting really annoying.
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Alright Clanton, you called down the thunder well now you got it! The cowboys are finished, you understand me? I see a red sash I kill a man wearing it. So run you Kurr. You tell em Im coming and hells coming with me you hear. Hells coming with me!

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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2008, 11:47:39 PM »

What I have been saying all along, when it comes to foreign situations like this Obama is weak (period).
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2008, 06:48:02 PM »

I think that got cut in half... or something...

No, I just had to lop off the "http://" portion so that the spam blocker would let it through. If you just copy what I posted and paste it into the web browser it will work (at least it does on Internet Explorer 7).

McCain's statements are characteristic of McCain, and reveals what his foreign policy would be like: belligerent, hawkish, prone to violence. He's pulling out all the stops, trying to compare this to 1938/9. It's like there's nothing he'd enjoy more than getting into a war with Russia.

The man is scary. He's belligerent. He wants to be Commander in Chief so bad that it visibly shows. His judgment on foreign policy is so bad that the people he is joined at the hip with couldn't even hang with the Bush admin. He was all for the Iraq war. He was all for attacking Iran. He's a loose cannon.

The fact that the Russians are now apparently pulling back demonstrates that calm, dispassionate diplomacy is often the best choice.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 07:42:14 PM by jpn of Seattle » Logged

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Abraxas
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2008, 08:33:33 PM »

1. I was calling the situation of two super nations trying to have another cold war stupid.

I see.

But it's like when 2 fish get too big for the same pond.

Quote from: AJFA
2.Many people have said it even before this incident. Remember when Bush wanted to set up missiles in Europe right next to Russia, but Putin said no? Well guess what Bush is going ahead with the plan anyways. In response Putin said that they may have to take nuclear action against any country who supports this US goal. From there it's been all down hill and anyone who has examined the situation knows that there is conflict between the two nations. This new situation only heightens that conflict, therefore McCain states the obvious.

Well, yeah, Putin said no, but so did Poland's parliment, IIRC.

Our second choice was the Czech Republic... but I don't know if they officially said "yes" yet. It's kind of stupid, really, because the defense system is in it's infancy, unable to strike a target that even makes an attempt to evade - but in the end, Russia has enough nukes to simply overload the system's ability to compensate.

But you're right - US foreign policy is just as to blame here as Russian over-exaggeration.

Quote from: AJFA
3. Obama's words -

"The relationship between Russia and the West is long and complicated. There have been many turning points, for good and ill. This is another turning point. Let me be clear: we seek a future of cooperative engagement with the Russian government, and friendship with the Russian people. We want Russia to play its rightful role as a great nation - but with that role comes the responsibility to act as a force for progress in this new century, not regression to the conflicts of the past. That is why the United States and the international community must speak out strongly against this aggression, and for peace and security."

4. Obama's full opinion on the sitution found right here as JPN tried to post -

htp://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/obama_no_possible_justificatio.php

I usually like what he has to say on issues, especially what he says about Iran...

... but I'm deeply underwhelmed by his wishy-washy responce.

"For many months, I have warned that there needs to be active international engagement to peacefully address the disputes over South Ossetia and Abkhazia, including a high-level and neutral international mediator, and a genuine international peacekeeping force - not simply Russian troops."

This alone shows me he's not as well versed with the conflict as he should be. This isn't Russian expansionism. The chess game that Russia is playing right now makes "expansionism" look like tic-tac-toe by comparison.

"We should continue to push for a United Nations Security Council Resolution calling for an immediate end to the violence. This is a clear violation of the sovereignty and internationally recognized borders of Georgia - the UN must stand up for the sovereignty of its members, and peace in the world."

As long as Russia has a vote in the UNSC, this is pointless to even mention. This is why the US has been able to escape criticism of its actions in Iraq. The best thing we can hope for Russia to agree to is humanitarian aid...

Everything he says later on fails to address a very important point: that Georgia invaded S Ossetia to keep it from breaking away from Georgia. Russia simply jumped in cause it saw an oppurtunity to hurt western intrests.

Just as much blame rests with Georgia as it does with Russia... and Obama never makes that clear.


Like I said, I usuallly like his opinions on foreign policy because the US is too heavy handed when dealing with "threats" abroad (Vietnam, Korea, Cuba, the Balkans, Iraq, etc.) and a softer, less hawkish hand is required.

But this is a very different type of conflict and "international peace" won't work because the actions of individual nations for the sake of "national security" trump it every time.

Since Obama shows an apparent inablility to understand the actual issue he can't possibly be expected to think of a propper solution.

Troops to the Ukraine will send a clear message. It's just a shame Bush had to go and overextend our military at a time when national interests are actually at stake Roll Eyes ...

McCain's statements are characteristic of McCain, and reveals what his foreign policy would be like: belligerent, hawkish, prone to violence. He's pulling out all the stops, trying to compare this to 1938/9. It's like there's nothing he'd enjoy more than getting into a war with Russia.

McCain's "hawkish" approach to the problem is actually rather appropriate. We're not dealing with a weak, powerless adversary anymore. This is the big leagues.

Like I said, I'm convinced the Cold War never actually ended. This crisis just goes to show that the ruling party or type of government for any particular country is irrelevant - only universal national interests define foreign policy.

Quote from: jpn
The man is scary. He's belligerent. He wants to be Commander in Chief so bad that it visibly shows. His judgment on foreign policy is so bad that the people he is joined at the hip with couldn't even hang with the Bush admin. He was all for the Iraq war. He was all for attacking Iran. He's a loose cannon.

You're right. McCain is ALL wrong about Iran, Iraq and the entire Middle East.

But he's right about Russia.

There is a powerful and important distinction between Russia and every other nation (since WWII) that we've been in conflict with. It's that Russia is the closest in military resources to actually put up a decent fight - not to mention their nuclear arsenal.

We. Can. Not. Treat. Russia. Like. We. Should. Everyone. Else.

Quote from: jpn
The fact that the Russians are now apparently pulling back demonstrates that calm, dispassionate diplomacy is often the best choice.

It demonstrates they've achieved a piece of their objective, which is to send a message.

If border countries start to reconsider their relationship with the West, we're screwed. Plus, they've shown their proximity to western energy intrests, which at this time of US oil dependence (and Russia's oil INdependence), is worthy of concern.
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2008, 05:54:42 AM »

Quote
What I have been saying all along, when it comes to foreign situations like this Obama is weak (period).

<shrugs> I didnt find McCains comments any  more enlightening. The reason he can say something before Bush is because he was scared the God of Hypocrisy would strike him dead on the spot.

Quote
It's all just really stupid and just because McCain is captain obvious doesn't mean he gets any points in my book.

Bingo. "Obvious-isms" sound so much like an actual policy too...but they ain't. I'm betting there's a wide sea between what McCain trumpets now and what he'd actually do if in the position.




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Abraxas
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2008, 06:23:06 AM »

Quote
It's all just really stupid and just because McCain is captain obvious doesn't mean he gets any points in my book.

Bingo. "Obvious-isms" sound so much like an actual policy too...but they ain't. I'm betting there's a wide sea between what McCain trumpets now and what he'd actually do if in the position.

Very, very true... and perhaps I should have made that clearer.

McCain seems to understand the situation better then the MSM and other politicians, but if "push came to shove" and he was the guy in the big chair, I also have to wonder if he'd do what he reccomends.

I'm just saying he's demonstrating a slightly better grasp of the situation then Obama... or Bush for that matter.
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2008, 09:05:16 AM »

It should be noted that One of McCains top advisors Randall Scheunemann was, up to 2007 a lobbeist for the country of Georgia. One has to wonder how unbiased his critisism of Russia's actions are, with someone as involved with Georgias side as Scheunemann is, advising him. Scheunemann wouldn't condem the ethnic cleansing that Georgia has been  practicing , after all he was/ is their advocate. Does anyone believe that McCain is taking a a real look at what is motivating Russia? How objective is he, when looking at the situation through the eyes of an advocate for Georgia?
 Its unlikely that Russia would have taken such action had Georgias petition to join NATO been accepted. We need to back up and ask why was the petition to join denied? What were they doing that was so bad that NATO wouldn't let them in? McCain came out quickly with an opinion on whats going on. Now we need to ask how accurate and objective is it?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 10:12:31 AM by freethinker » Logged

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