Totino
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« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2008, 07:19:44 PM » |
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Now INDEPENDANCE is OFTEN gained from war? Thats quite a softening of your previous position that "freedom is a direct result of war".
Did I get you thinking Tot?
That is not a change of opinion mate.... |
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Totino
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« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2008, 07:22:12 PM » |
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Switzerland was taken over by France in in late 1790. They did not gain independence until Russia invaded Switzerland and fought off France. Finally causing Napoleon to straighten up. They were not official until I believe the congress of Vienna. Switzerland hasn't been to war since 1815 and has been free to determine it's own goverment since the ratification of it's constitution in 1848... and before then it was a Confederacy ( SOURCE: Wiki). So Switzerland hasn't had to fight for its freedoms since the 19th century and Canada... just got lucky, or something? C'mon... you can do better then that... I'm not pissing in your eye or anything or saying as a soldier you don't do anything. I'm just rejecting the premise that freedom isn't possible without war. I forgot to add that while Canda has not fought for its own independence recently, it has fought in numerous other wars to secure freedoms for OTHER countries. History repeats itself. Maybe down the line we'll have a repeat Hitler on the otherwise of the world and Canada/US will have to try to gain independence again. Who the hell knows bro. |
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 07:25:09 PM by Totino »
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\\\"Since you\\\'re going to loose everything anyway when you die, you might as well get rid of it now\\\" \\\"All creations, including god, originate in the mind\\\" |
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freethinker
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« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2008, 07:34:04 PM » |
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Do you believe that the Iraq war was a war for freedom?
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 07:40:36 PM by freethinker »
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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Abraxas
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"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2008, 07:57:08 PM » |
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Wow. You missed the point. How did they GAIN their freedom and independence? THROUGH WAR. It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp. They did it through conflict... not war. Something like 100 people died. And furthermore, Switzerland has been able to STAY free without war. They have not fought a war since (even though Germany had plans to invade them). That's awesome. But it doesn't change the fact that their independence and thus freedom was gained from war in the early 1800s. You said freedom is the result of war. I disagreed with that premise. Now INDEPENDANCE is OFTEN gained from war? Thats quite a softening of your previous position that "freedom is a direct result of war".
Did I get you thinking Tot?
That is not a change of opinion mate.... It's not... but it's a more refined opinion. |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Cass
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« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2008, 08:24:20 PM » |
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While this discussion has wandered way OT, maybe it's time I step in here and ask Totino a questions, as he decided to use Canada for an example of how freedom is achieved. Maybe while choosing that specific nation as an example he should ask himself why Canada chose not to be a participant in the conflict in Vietnam and also chose not to be a member of the "coalition of the willing" for the purpose of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. On the other hand because they are a member of NATO they have served honorably and continue to do so, having lost a number of their finest, even when a number were killed by U.S. so-called "friendly fire?"
While I believe, as other have suggested Totino has a right to express his opinion on this forum, I share the belief it is he who is lacking a good grounding in U.S. history, most particularly Constitutional history. In addition, I firmly believe if he chooses to risk his life and limb to support what is more than clearly a invasion and occupation based on lies with the only purpose for it hegemony over one nation in the Middle East and the "black gold" beneath the surface there, that is his choice.
But I reiterate, I remain concerned for him and nothing more, because though I have never seen a day of combat, I have seen more of the results than I hope he never sees and live 24/7 with one who has seen more than his share, and btw, a man that shares my feelings as I share his. Maybe when Totino sees his first mangled body of one of those people who is his comrade in arms, he may see more of the truth of war and even worse, wars of choice.
Until that time, should it ever come, I wish him the best though I personally believe him a fool. And with that statement I leave it to others to continue a rather the forum war.
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\\"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die.\\" Edward Kennedy, U.S.
Senator
The old lion of the Senate, though a lion in winter, has lived to do more for this nation than John or Bobby though
who knows what life would be like now had they lived.
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mdma
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« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2008, 08:44:43 PM » |
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And furthermore, Switzerland has been able to STAY free without war.
So you suggest to have world banking system at any country to keep it away from trouble? |
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notin
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freethinker
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2008, 06:40:10 AM » |
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My contention is that wars are fought for many reasons and that freedom is the justification but NOT the motivation. The commonly held belief by all sides in any conflict is that they are fighting for freedom. The difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter has more to do with point of view than a definition of actions. It would be difficult to get people to lay down their lives for economic reasons but it is quite easy to convince people to march to their death for freedom. Aggressors can almost always justify aggression by calling it defense of freedom. Those who participate are quick to accept without question. Motivation For war
From: Roedy Green <see_website_at_mindprod.com.invalid>
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:24:42 GMT
I have been continually baffled why so many Canadians and Americans support wars costly both in dollars and life when they cannot explain why, at least not give a reason that makes any sense.
For example, racists who tell me they want all Muslims on the planet exterminated, also tell me they are laying down their lives and spending trillions of dollars to give the gift of democracy to a tiny Muslim nation on the other side of the globe, even if they have to kill every last one of the filthy ragheads to do it.
Tony Robbins and Werner Erhard each have an explanation.
Robbins pointed out that, contrary to popular understanding, motivation comes AFTER action. For example, if you want to exercise, don't wait for motivation to strike. Just exercise. Gradually all kinds of motivations will follow. We tend to create reasons to justify what we do that reinforce what we do.
Similarly, Erhard pointed out that to get people to do something, you simply push them to do it. They will then generate their OWN explanations to themselves why they CHOSE to do it. These internal, perhaps nutty, reasons will be more convincing to them than any reasons you might give.
Then there is the matter of revenge spirals. Once the war starts, there is motive to continue the war simply to punish the other side, even if you are the one that started the fight.
"You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an argument for it."
~ Noam Chomsky -- |
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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Totino
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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2008, 11:39:37 AM » |
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While this discussion has wandered way OT, maybe it's time I step in here and ask Totino a questions, as he decided to use Canada for an example of how freedom is achieved. Maybe while choosing that specific nation as an example he should ask himself why Canada chose not to be a participant in the conflict in Vietnam and also chose not to be a member of the "coalition of the willing" for the purpose of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. On the other hand because they are a member of NATO they have served honorably and continue to do so, having lost a number of their finest, even when a number were killed by U.S. so-called "friendly fire?"
While I believe, as other have suggested Totino has a right to express his opinion on this forum, I share the belief it is he who is lacking a good grounding in U.S. history, most particularly Constitutional history. In addition, I firmly believe if he chooses to risk his life and limb to support what is more than clearly a invasion and occupation based on lies with the only purpose for it hegemony over one nation in the Middle East and the "black gold" beneath the surface there, that is his choice.
But I reiterate, I remain concerned for him and nothing more, because though I have never seen a day of combat, I have seen more of the results than I hope he never sees and live 24/7 with one who has seen more than his share, and btw, a man that shares my feelings as I share his. Maybe when Totino sees his first mangled body of one of those people who is his comrade in arms, he may see more of the truth of war and even worse, wars of choice.
Until that time, should it ever come, I wish him the best though I personally believe him a fool. And with that statement I leave it to others to continue a rather the forum war.
Seems while you think I need a history lesson, you need an English lesson. I did not bring out Canada. Abraxas brought up Canada and Switzerland, I simply went off of the two. And nothing else here really needs to be addressed as you made no points. You just flung around low key insults. |
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\\\"Since you\\\'re going to loose everything anyway when you die, you might as well get rid of it now\\\" \\\"All creations, including god, originate in the mind\\\" |
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Totino
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« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2008, 11:43:01 AM » |
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Wow. You missed the point. How did they GAIN their freedom and independence? THROUGH WAR. It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp. They did it through conflict... not war. Something like 100 people died. And furthermore, Switzerland has been able to STAY free without war. They have not fought a war since (even though Germany had plans to invade them). That's awesome. But it doesn't change the fact that their independence and thus freedom was gained from war in the early 1800s. You said freedom is the result of war. I disagreed with that premise. Now INDEPENDANCE is OFTEN gained from war? Thats quite a softening of your previous position that "freedom is a direct result of war".
Did I get you thinking Tot?
That is not a change of opinion mate.... It's not... but it's a more refined opinion. They won it through conflict? Negative. From your own source it clearly states: "When war broke out between France and its rivals, Russian and Austrian forces invaded Switzerland. In 1803 Napoleon organised a meeting of the leading Swiss politicians from both sides in Paris. The result was the Act of Mediation which largely restored Swiss autonomy and introduced a Confederation of 19 cantons. Henceforth much of Swiss politics would concern balancing the cantons' tradition of self-rule with the need for a central government." It was gained through war. |
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Abraxas
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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2008, 12:21:43 PM » |
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And that was the last one they were in... and yet they remain a free state.
See my point?
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Totino
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« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2008, 12:25:43 PM » |
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You don't have a point. It doesn't matter if they don't have to fight in a war 24/7 to gain freedom. I never stated anyone was in constant war for freedom. I simply stated war = freedom. And in the case of Switzerland, it is true. In the case of the states, it is true. etc etc etc
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\\\"Since you\\\'re going to loose everything anyway when you die, you might as well get rid of it now\\\" \\\"All creations, including god, originate in the mind\\\" |
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Abraxas
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« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2008, 12:35:53 PM » |
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You don't have a point. It doesn't matter if they don't have to fight in a war 24/7 to gain freedom. I never stated anyone was in constant war for freedom. I simply stated war = freedom. And in the case of Switzerland, it is true. In the case of the states, it is true. etc etc etc
If you have crawl back 200 years to prove your point, fine, but I think their continued neutrality through 2 World Wars and a host of brush fires kinda proves it's possible to remain free without conflict. |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Totino
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Posts: 1,383
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« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2008, 12:40:41 PM » |
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You don't have a point. It doesn't matter if they don't have to fight in a war 24/7 to gain freedom. I never stated anyone was in constant war for freedom. I simply stated war = freedom. And in the case of Switzerland, it is true. In the case of the states, it is true. etc etc etc
If you have crawl back 200 years to prove your point, fine, but I think their continued neutrality through 2 World Wars and a host of brush fires kinda proves it's possible to remain free without conflict. I don't have to crawl back 200 years. How about WWII? The only reason Switzerland didn't have to fight in WWII is because we took out Hitler before he put his plan against Switzerland into action. It was only a matter of time. And of course you can always use WWII as an example for other countries who had to fight IE: France, etc Your entire argument is based on "Well they are not in war right now!". So the hell what. History has proven itself. And you have no idea what the future will hold. |
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« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 12:43:08 PM by Totino »
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Patton
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« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2008, 12:50:02 PM » |
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Trying to make a comparison of the US to Switzerland, or stating a rhetorical question as to why we can't be like them is rather silly......
Switzerland is not the anchor to ANY defensive treaty.
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Abraxas
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« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2008, 01:02:30 PM » |
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I don't have to crawl back 200 years. How about WWII? The only reason Switzerland didn't have to fight in WWII is because we took out Hitler before he put his plan against Switzerland into action. It was only a matter of time. We have plans to invade Canada. Do you think we will? We don't what would have happened if Hitler wasn't stopped when he was. And of course you can always use WWII as an example for other countries who had to fight IE: France, etc
Your entire argument is based on "Well they are not in war right now!". So the hell what. History has proven itself. And you have no idea what the future will hold. Yes, my entire argument is they're still free and haven't been in war for 200 years. Why do you so nonchalantly disregard this fact? It's in direct contrast to the idea that, "freedom is the direct result of war." Trying to make a comparison of the US to Switzerland, or stating a rhetorical question as to why we can't be like them is rather silly......
Switzerland is not the anchor to ANY defensive treaty. I didn't say anything about the US, merely the premise of Tot's original statement. |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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