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Wiglaf
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« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2008, 05:05:55 PM » |
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Yeah.
I guess the teacher (Wiglaf) wouldn't be the best source of information on what is required to teach someone. My Wife is a Teacher and so are the majority of our friends. While I do not know wiglaf personally, I do know quite a few teachers personally that do disagree, as I do, with his theory. You'll forgive me if I'm a bit suspicious of this claim. You just happened to bring up this very idea, conveniently enough, to your teacher friends who happen to all agree with you. Give me a break! Says you.
Tell me, was your life at a Military Academy different then the one you might have gotten at a public school?
Of course it was. So do you think the "going ons" of a military academy would transfer well to a public school enviroment?
I go to a regimented college and I can assure you that the uniform, command structure, demerit system, designated path for each class of student, physical training, etc. wouldn't be loved by my friends at "regular" colleges. yes, life in Military Academy was different. But, mine was not a boarding school. I went home each day. It was far more regimented then public schools. There was no need to put a military press onto your uniform, nor spit shine one's shoes each day, nor polish your brass, nor march each morning at public school. That was different. Also, back then if you broke the rules a large paddle with holes drilled in it was your reward. But I went straight from public school into the academy environment without any "transfer" problems. I suspect that most students would be capable of the same. A point was made that Teachers carrying would somehow change the Student/Teacher dynamic because of the "threat of lethal force". I called this rubbish, for I know that it is rubbish. Some of the most beloved teachers I have ever had the pleasure to know had appearances, I suspect most kids, thought of as frightening at first glance. It is the person they were inside that gained the admiration of people they came into contact with. Not their outward appearance. So, this in mind, I believe that children would not be affected by a teachers carrying a concealed weapon. a weapon, may I remind you, that the children would not even be aware they had on them. I, myself carried a concealed weapon for a few years, and I can tell you from personal experience that the people around me and myself felt nothing but more secure, in certain situations, because of it. Just the same as if, say, you would feel more secure to have a security guard walk you to your car late at night in a high crime area. This is as natural, logical and real as your instinct for self preservation. So, yes, I know wiglaf's theory is utter nonsense. Are you being being intentionally obtuse here? A specialized school like your works because students know what they're in for and are, at are some level OK with it. Many of them want, or think they want, military or police careers. People choose them because they are OK with the regimentation and weapons involved in the environment. That wouldn't be true of the general school population as you well know. Assuming that the kids wouldn't know you had weapons in the case of a more generalized distribution of concealed weapons is sheer fantasy. Parents would know because of the political necessity for such disclosure and they'd certainly (at least some of them) let it slip to their kids. Incidentally, I noticed that you said people felt more comfortable in certain circumstances with your concealed weapon. Is it reasonable to conclude that other situations made them feel less comfortable? |
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. . . sometimes it seems that one has to lean into the wind to stand straight.
James Welch Winter in the Blood
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,no law, no court can even do much to save it.
Judge Learned Hand
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Abraxas
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"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2008, 06:20:16 PM » |
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Says you.
Tell me, was your life at a Military Academy different then the one you might have gotten at a public school?
Of course it was. So do you think the "going ons" of a military academy would transfer well to a public school enviroment?
I go to a regimented college and I can assure you that the uniform, command structure, demerit system, designated path for each class of student, physical training, etc. wouldn't be loved by my friends at "regular" colleges. yes, life in Military Academy was different. But, mine was not a boarding school. I went home each day. It was far more regimented then public schools. There was no need to put a military press onto your uniform, nor spit shine one's shoes each day, nor polish your brass, nor march each morning at public school. That was different. Also, back then if you broke the rules a large paddle with holes drilled in it was your reward. But I went straight from public school into the academy environment without any "transfer" problems. I suspect that most students would be capable of the same. A point was made that Teachers carrying would somehow change the Student/Teacher dynamic because of the "threat of lethal force". I called this rubbish, for I know that it is rubbish. Some of the most beloved teachers I have ever had the pleasure to know had appearances, I suspect most kids, thought of as frightening at first glance. It is the person they were inside that gained the admiration of people they came into contact with. Not their outward appearance. So, this in mind, I believe that children would not be affected by a teachers carrying a concealed weapon. a weapon, may I remind you, that the children would not even be aware they had on them. I, myself carried a concealed weapon for a few years, and I can tell you from personal experience that the people around me and myself felt nothing but more secure, in certain situations, because of it. Just the same as if, say, you would feel more secure to have a security guard walk you to your car late at night in a high crime area. This is as natural, logical and real as your instinct for self preservation. So, yes, I know wiglaf's theory is utter nonsense. I don't think the "threat of lethal force" would change the dynamic of a learning enviroment. I think the mere fact that a gun nearby would. I remember in 5th grade when a cop came to class for our stupid DARE program. All the kids kept doing was looking at and asking questions about the guys gun. Don't tell me a gun doesn't create distractions. I've seen it happen! Also, while you and I and others may transfer between a public school and a regimented school without trouble, I can assure you that the vast majoirty out there wouldn't. My freshman class was 300. It's not down to about 150 and will be 100 by the time I graduate. That's cause 200 people couldn't deal with it. Either the academics or the regiment killed them. So don't assume what's alright for people in military schools is alright for people in public schools, cause if my school is any indication, 2/3 of the people will react poorly. And what about the teacher that isn't trained to use a firearm? And what about the shooter who only thinks his teacher is a threat?
Dead teacher.
This law puts a bullzeye on every teacher in the system and may very well scare away new ones. And what about, and what about....Do you hear yourself? I gave you ONE example, Retro. Read it again! And this time actually READ it. It should be mandatory to be trained if one is to be allowed to carry in school. Without training I would not recommend allowing anyone to carry anywhere. a student crazy enough to go on a school shooting spree will probably aim at someone pointing a gun back at them first. This is true. But, a trained shooter is far more likely to use cover and hit his target, as opposed to an untrained deranged shooter, who traditionally, just walk right out in the open and start firing. If the shooter even thinks his teacher has a gun, the teacher will be the first to die. He'll get everyone else later. Like I said, all this does is endanger every teacher out there whether they have a gun or not. Regardless, there are no guarantees in life. This program will not, unequivocally, not guarantee anyones child's safety at school. But, ask me if I, personally, would feel more secure knowing my kids were at school with someone who I trusted, and knew was competent, responsible and trained in firearms. The answer would be yes.. Keep in mind that I may be looking at it from a completely different perspective then you. I've been around firearms all my life. I'm a reloader and an, at one time, Certified NRA instructor. My shop is in a semi-high crime area. There was someone shot 3 blocks from here just last night. I heard the shots from my office. I would like to be able to get a CCP for myself here, but they have made nearly impossible to get one in Los Angeles these days. It seems like the worse crime gets here, the harder the state makes it to be able to protect yourself with lethal force. I don't walk the streets in fear without a gun, but I know the potential for an altercation involving firearms is very real here. Take it for what its worth. There is a difference between your right to carry a gun down a dangerous alley and to carry one at school. Again, my problem isn't with the 2nd ammendment or the gun itself, but rather how much more endangered the teacher is - especially the one without a gun. I'm all for the 2nd ammendment but you are so far outside of reality that it's scary.
You really have no concept of what a gun in a classroon DOES and COULD DO. I think you and I see the same words in the 2nd amendment, but I don't think we define it the same. It's just a difference in the mental conditioning we've been exposed to. I see it terms of "The Constitution" guarantees me the right to carry a loaded firearm on my person anytime I am in public. Carrying on private property is at the sole discretion of the property owner. Thats how I see it. Also, Regardless of what you think you know about me, allow me to assure you I am fully aware of the concept and negative aspects of gun's in the class room. The fact that you wrote that shows you clearly have no idea what I'm concerened about with guns in the class room. MY PROBLEM ISN'T WITH THE GUN! IT'S WITH WHAT THE ADDITION OF THE GUN DOES TO THE SHOOTER'S LIST OF PRIORITY TARGETS! THE TEACHER IS AT THE TOP NOW WHETHER THEY HAVE A GUN OR NOT! THIS COULD DISCOURAGE NEW TEACHERS AND LEAD CURRENT ONES TO QUIT! Savvy? |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2008, 06:30:55 PM » |
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Are you being being intentionally obtuse here? A specialized school like your works because students know what they're in for and are, at are some level OK with it. Many of them want, or think they want, military or police careers. People choose them because they are OK with the regimentation and weapons involved in the environment. That wouldn't be true of the general school population as you well know. Assuming that the kids wouldn't know you had weapons in the case of a more generalized distribution of concealed weapons is sheer fantasy. Parents would know because of the political necessity for such disclosure and they'd certainly (at least some of them) let it slip to their kids. Incidentally, I noticed that you said people felt more comfortable in certain circumstances with your concealed weapon. Is it reasonable to conclude that other situations made them feel less comfortable? Your assuming I wanted to go to Military academy. I did not. Nor did I know what I was in for, nor was I O.K. with it. At no time have I wanted a career in the military or police. I accepted it out of necessity, I felt I had no choice so I adapted. Just as most kids would adapt under the same circumstances..... as you, apparently, do not know. Do you think you have to be special in order to go to Military Academy? You don't. And what does it matter if the kids know you are armed? Your thinking it matters is an absurd notion on your part and I've offered ample evidence to support my views. You have offered none to support yours. You'll forgive me if I'm a bit suspicious of this claim. You just happened to bring up this very idea, conveniently enough, to your teacher friends who happen to all agree with you. Give me a break! No, I didn't bring it up. But, the topic of protecting themselves from armed or large students has come up before. Most of the men would like to be able to arm themselves but here they are not even allowed mace or a stun gun...nor a baseball bat even. So their choice is, when faced with a younger stronger or multiple threats, is either get beat up or run away. But the kids can run faster too. It looks like you just will not accept any solution other then your own, nor anyone else's opinion that differs from yours. Hey, by the time I was 10 I thought I knew everything to...You'll grow out of it....maybe. |
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« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2008, 06:38:15 PM » |
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You know I've been thinking about it and I've gone from thinking this is a bad idea to a horrible idea. WTF is this a police state? Imagine having your teachers with a damned gun around their belt. Makes for a comfy learning atmosphere doesn't it? Teachers are there to teach nothing more. Security officers and cameras are plenty for school and school shootings are about as rare as George W making a wise decision.
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Alright Clanton, you called down the thunder well now you got it! The cowboys are finished, you understand me? I see a red sash I kill a man wearing it. So run you Kurr. You tell em Im coming and hells coming with me you hear. Hells coming with me!
-Wyatt Earp
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« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2008, 06:47:23 PM » |
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The fact that you wrote that shows you clearly have no idea what I'm concerened about with guns in the class room.
MY PROBLEM ISN'T WITH THE GUN! IT'S WITH WHAT THE ADDITION OF THE GUN DOES TO THE SHOOTER'S LIST OF PRIORITY TARGETS! THE TEACHER IS AT THE TOP NOW WHETHER THEY HAVE A GUN OR NOT! THIS COULD DISCOURAGE NEW TEACHERS AND LEAD CURRENT ONES TO QUIT!
Savvy? If you are carrying a concealed weapon, it's hidden, hence the term "concealed". Furthermore, if a parent is told which teachers are armed and asked not to reveal this to their children, do you think the parents would tell their kids regardless? First you said it would disrupt the teacher/student dynamic. Then you said it would target teachers. Well, better the teacher then the kids. And after that first "bang" I doubt they would be able to kill as many kids before other armed teachers responded. None of your arguments have substance. Yes, they would target the person with the gun first because that would be t he one person around who could stop them....do you understand that? |
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« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2008, 06:54:41 PM » |
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You know I've been thinking about it and I've gone from thinking this is a bad idea to a horrible idea. WTF is this a police state? Imagine having your teachers with a damned gun around their belt. Makes for a comfy learning atmosphere doesn't it? Teachers are there to teach nothing more. Security officers and cameras are plenty for school and school shootings are about as rare as George W making a wise decision. Hello, there concealed! What ever. We disagree. |
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« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2008, 07:00:09 PM » |
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Concealed where in his pocket? It'd be awfully hot to wear a jacket in spring and autumn. Or is it concealed in his desk in which I all ready mentioned the problem about that one. But yeah just trying to point out some things no hard feelings.  |
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Alright Clanton, you called down the thunder well now you got it! The cowboys are finished, you understand me? I see a red sash I kill a man wearing it. So run you Kurr. You tell em Im coming and hells coming with me you hear. Hells coming with me!
-Wyatt Earp
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Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Karma: +216/-218
Posts: 4,192
"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2008, 07:03:56 PM » |
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The fact that you wrote that shows you clearly have no idea what I'm concerened about with guns in the class room.
MY PROBLEM ISN'T WITH THE GUN! IT'S WITH WHAT THE ADDITION OF THE GUN DOES TO THE SHOOTER'S LIST OF PRIORITY TARGETS! THE TEACHER IS AT THE TOP NOW WHETHER THEY HAVE A GUN OR NOT! THIS COULD DISCOURAGE NEW TEACHERS AND LEAD CURRENT ONES TO QUIT!
Savvy? If you are carrying a concealed weapon, it's hidden, hence the term "concealed". Furthermore, if a parent is told which teachers are armed and asked not to reveal this to their children, do you think the parents would tell their kids regardless? OMG! Are you really that dense? It's a law being passed by the Texas legislature. Do you really think everyone is going to be oblivious to what the law does? And isn't the whole point of the law to in effort to discourage future shooters by letting them know that there are more people in the school with guns (which, in and of itself, is pretty silly cause school shooters don't usually expect to survive anyway...)? First you said it would disrupt the teacher/student dynamic. No. I didn't. In fact I specifically said I didn't say that in the last post: "I don't think the 'threat of lethal force' would change the dynamic of a learning enviroment."I said teachers would become the primary threat to school shooters and would be the first targeted whether they have a gun or not. The shooter only knows teachers are allowed to carry guns he would aim for them first because they represent the biggest threat. After I tried to say this the first time I mentioned a gun, if seen by the students, may create a distraction, especially with younger students who don't understand the purpose or severity of it's presence. Then you said it would target teachers. That's what I've been saying since the beginning! From my second post on page 2: "Teachers (ALL TEACHERS), regardless of whether they carry a weapon or not, will now be the first target of a kid with a gun."Don't pretend like I'm inconsistent. You can't even read! Well, better the teacher then the kids. You have GOT to be fucking kidding me. Seriously... are you brain dead? It's better for the teacher to be shot then the kids? You just killed by dad, ass wipe. Thanks! And after that first "bang" I doubt they would be able to kill as many kids before other armed teachers responded. Yeah, what's one more dead teacher? None of your arguments have substance. You don't even know what my arguments are! How could I possibly expect you to debate them? Yes, they would target the person with the gun first because that would be the one person around who could stop them....do you understand that? Do you understand that they're dead now? I mean, how many teachers do you expect to carry guns to school? I would bet maybe 5% - 10% would even be eligable to carry one to school... and some still might not do it. |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Crystal
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« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2008, 08:22:53 PM » |
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Now boys, if you aren't going to play nice then nobody can have a conversation about this. You all resort to anger at the drop of a hat. I can't even jump in to make a point because it will be lost while you pick each other apart.
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« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2008, 02:21:04 AM » |
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Crystal, I apologize for the testosterone. OMG! Are you really that dense?
It's a law being passed by the Texas legislature. Do you really think everyone is going to be oblivious to what the law does? And isn't the whole point of the law to in effort to discourage future shooters by letting them know that there are more people in the school with guns (which, in and of itself, is pretty silly cause school shooters don't usually expect to survive anyway...)? The class would have a fighting chance with an armed teacher. Without somebody armed, they are all fish in a barrel. I'm not going to call you dense or insinuate that your parents were never married. I'm just going to say that I think the kids would have a better chance with an armed teacher. I said teachers would become the primary threat to school shooters and would be the first targeted whether they have a gun or not. The shooter only knows teachers are allowed to carry guns he would aim for them first because they represent the biggest threat.
After I tried to say this the first time I mentioned a gun, if seen by the students, may create a distraction, especially with younger students who don't understand the purpose or severity of it's presence. Not the biggest threat, the only threat. And you are dead wrong about the gun being visible. All they need to do is wear a shirt that doesn't tuck in, a small 5 shot .38 special or a 9mm kurtz auto (.380) worn in am inner waistband holster reversed. You don't know what your talking about in the concealed department because you've never done it. I did it for years. No one would ever know it was there. But, even if they did, kids adapt. Your not giving anyone credit for anything. You say the kids can't adapt to armed teachers. You say the teachers couldn't conceal their guns, nor be able to protect themselves from an armed assailant. People are a lot more flexible and capable then you've been led to believe. No. I didn't.
In fact I specifically said I didn't say that in the last post:
"I don't think the 'threat of lethal force' would change the dynamic of a learning enviroment."
I mistook you for wiglaf. Sorry. It happens. You have GOT to be fucking kidding me. Seriously... are you brain dead?
It's better for the teacher to be shot then the kids?
You just killed by dad, ass wipe. Thanks! No kids yet? How did I guess. Yeah, what's one more dead teacher? Just how the fuck do you know? How about if the psycho just wings the teacher and the teacher is still able to return fire? It's just as likely of a scenario, but no, you demand that the teacher (your Dad) has to die because I'm so dense. You spew your stinking MSM bullshit as if you have any real world experience concerning guns or human nature or anything but how to be a stubborn egotist who insists its their way or nothing. In layman's terms, Your full of shit. Go out and learn about firearms, carry one around with you for a few years, then have some kids and get something to lose, then come back and talk to me about it. Concealed where in his pocket? It'd be awfully hot to wear a jacket in spring and autumn. Or is it concealed in his desk in which I all ready mentioned the problem about that one. But yeah just trying to point out some things no hard feelings. Once again, you have no experience in the field on concealed carry, so why do you think that you are right. Your not. Handguns can be easily conceald. And if you refuse to believe it then your just as stubborn and wrong as Abraxas (the first known God.....not) Do you understand that they're dead now? Abraxas, sometimes you can be such a mindless fuckin' idiot. (whoops! Sorry Crystal.) |
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Abraxas
Global Moderator
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"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2008, 09:36:37 AM » |
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The class would have a fighting chance with an armed teacher. Without somebody armed, they are all fish in a barrel. I'm not going to call you dense or insinuate that your parents were never married. I'm just going to say that I think the kids would have a better chance with an armed teacher. What does the marriage status of my parents have to do with anything? And I'm worried about my parents who wouldn't bring a gun to school... but a school shooter wouldn't know that. All the school shooter knows is that the teacher might have a gun, so the first person the shooter is going to incompasitate is the teacher. The teacher is now the primary target in EVERY situation. This may lead current teachers to retire and discourage new ones from taking the job. This is the LAST thing we need right now. Not the biggest threat, the only threat. And you are dead wrong about the gun being visible. All they need to do is wear a shirt that doesn't tuck in, a small 5 shot .38 special or a 9mm kurtz auto (.380) worn in am inner waistband holster reversed. You don't know what your talking about in the concealed department because you've never done it. I did it for years. No one would ever know it was there. But, even if they did, kids adapt. Your not giving anyone credit for anything. You say the kids can't adapt to armed teachers. You say the teachers couldn't conceal their guns, nor be able to protect themselves from an armed assailant. People are a lot more flexible and capable then you've been led to believe. The gun is not my primary argument. Stop treating it like it was. I only mentioned the possibility it could cause a distraction. My opposition to this law ISN'T the gun. How many times do I have to tell you this? No kids yet? How did I guess. No, but I have a father and mother and this law endangers both of them. Are you still convinced that teachers should sacrifice themselves for their students? Then they should be paid for it! Just how the fuck do you know? How about if the psycho just wings the teacher and the teacher is still able to return fire? It's just as likely of a scenario, but no, you demand that the teacher (your Dad) has to die because I'm so dense. You spew your stinking MSM bullshit as if you have any real world experience concerning guns or human nature or anything but how to be a stubborn egotist who insists its their way or nothing. In layman's terms, Your full of shit. Go out and learn about firearms, carry one around with you for a few years, then have some kids and get something to lose, then come back and talk to me about it. The student gets the first shot. All he has to do is wait till the teacher turns around. Their are SEVERAL oppurtunities to be standing right next to the teacher, and if the teacher can hide a gun then so can a kid. Basically, a school shooter has a wealth of options in how to kill the teacher first and I would be shocked if the teacher manages to survive. You say my opinion is influenced by the MSM, despite the fact that my parents are both teachers. Don't you think THIS shapes my opinion more? Don't mitigate my opinion because it's difficult for you to debate. |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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And Justice For All
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« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2008, 10:34:26 AM » |
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Concealed where in his pocket? It'd be awfully hot to wear a jacket in spring and autumn. Or is it concealed in his desk in which I all ready mentioned the problem about that one. But yeah just trying to point out some things no hard feelings. Once again, you have no experience in the field on concealed carry, so why do you think that you are right. Your not. Handguns can be easily conceald. And if you refuse to believe it then your just as stubborn and wrong as Abraxas (the first known God.....not) Yet you still didn't answer the question, and as I mentioned before hiding the gun in the classroom can result in it getting stolen and bad things happening. |
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Alright Clanton, you called down the thunder well now you got it! The cowboys are finished, you understand me? I see a red sash I kill a man wearing it. So run you Kurr. You tell em Im coming and hells coming with me you hear. Hells coming with me!
-Wyatt Earp
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« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2008, 10:54:57 AM » |
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Yet you still didn't answer the question, and as I mentioned before hiding the gun in the classroom can result in it getting stolen and bad things happening. Yes I did answer the question of how easily a gun can be concealed. But here it is again: "All they need to do is wear a shirt that doesn't tuck in, carry a small 5 shot .38 special or a 9mm kurtz auto (.380) worn in an inner waistband holster, reversed (reversed means that the grip of the gun points forward. This is done so when you bend forward there is no grip end butting out)." And, as I stated before: teachers would not be allowed to take their guns out of the holster on school grounds except in the event of an emergency Do you understand what I'm saying now? |
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Crystal
Full Member
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« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2008, 11:32:52 AM » |
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They can also put a gun in an ankle holster.
If some would be ok with an armed rent a cop, why not a teacher who, IMO, is far more educated and rational? The teacher is usually the first one targeted anyway because they put themselves between the shooter and the kids in most cases.
Now think about this for one minute. If you had to trust one or the other, would you rather trust an $8.00 per hour rent a cop who doesn't know the kids or faculty............ or a teacher, who went through college and loves the kids they teach as well as the faculty they work with?
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Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Karma: +216/-218
Posts: 4,192
"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2008, 12:27:41 PM » |
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If some would be ok with an armed rent a cop, why not a teacher who, IMO, is far more educated and rational? The teacher is usually the first one targeted anyway because they put themselves between the shooter and the kids in most cases. I'm sorry Crystal, but that isn't necessarily true. When a shooter starts his rampage he's under the impression he's the only one with a gun. If there is even a possibility that the teacher does, they will be the first victim. I think this is a tremendous risk to just GIVE to teachers. A rent-a-cop is at least under the impression he could die because of the things he may have to do. A teacher shouldn't have to be faced with their own mortality every day. It's not what they sighned up for. |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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