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Author Topic: Texas school district is allowing teachers to carry guns  (Read 1481 times)
Wiglaf
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2008, 12:50:15 AM »

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This is a solution chasing a problem.  Yes there have been school shootings, but schools are still just about the least likely place to encounter gun violence(churches might be safer, but that's about it). There is probably more risk from accidental shooting than is averted by having it there in the first place.  Teachers need to keep track of where students are, whether they're working, what they're learning, whether materials like papers and books are readily at hand and at least half a dozen other things at a time.  With all that they can't keep it in a place where they'll usually be (good teachers circulate throughout the room a good deal of the time which means they'd often be away from it in the rare occasion they might "need" it anyhow).  In any care it also creates a situation which erodes their role as teacher anyhow. Dumb idea.

  If you have a CCP (concealed carry permit), the gun is on your person at all times when out in public, except in your car is the only time it is not in its holster.  Teachers will have their firearm on them at all times, NOT in their desk. Is that clear?
That still doesn't address anything but my least important point.   It changes the role of teacher in a way which reduces their effectiveness as a teacher.  Schools are already safer than about any other place you can put a kid.  Any program which increases the presence of dangerous weapons which can be accidentally discharged to protect against a threat which is largely illusory is foolhardy.  Gun accidents kill far more people than the sensationalized but astonishingly rare school shooter.  Safety at schools can be increased more by any number of other methods which don't involve packing heat(for example a defibrillator at school would likely save more people without the potential for harms your "solution"  introduces).  This sounds more like the plot of a cheesy Hollywood thriller than sound policy.
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illy
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2008, 03:02:10 AM »

I agree this does have the potential to distract teachers, which is why it should only be allowed for veteran teachers.

This idea worries me less than say, county deputies patrolling the school armed with tasers, and makes me much less nervous than the idea of rent-a-cops guarding schools.
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gommi
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2008, 08:45:15 AM »

Many schools already employ rent-a-cops and professional hall monitors (security guards). Why not arm them rather than the teachers?
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2008, 08:52:57 AM »

I was just thinking that gommi. Seems like a cheap version of security. "If you'd like to bring your own gun to school and are certified sure".

You wouldn't need a lot. Just a couple guys who 'take over' on a lock down.
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Crystal
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2008, 09:00:14 AM »

Why the fear of teachers having guns? They don't do the job for the money, that's for sure.  They do it because they love it and they love the kids.  Teachers are some of the most sane people around.  (yes, there are exceptions as with anything else)  Should we just require the teachers to use their bodies as a sheild between the shooter and the students?  Or should we give them the chance to protect themselves and the kids?  Crisis training, gun training and licensing are a must, of course.  Teachers are the biggest influence on kids other than parents.  Most take their job very seriously and care deeply for these students.  In all the shootings at schools, I have never heard of a teacher trying to run away and protect themselves only.  Instead, most stay and try to protect the kids knowing that they will be the first ones to get shot at.  What other professionals would do that for our kids?  I woud trust a teacher far more than anyone else to do the right thing where the students are concerned.  The argument that school shootings are rare doesn't hold up.  It is happening more and more every year.  I looked on www.schoolsecurity.org and found 64 school related shootings which no deaths occured and 28 shootings that resulted in death, all from the 2006-2007 school year.  That doesn't seem very rare to me.          
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2008, 10:12:06 AM »

Both of my parents are teachers and so are all of their friends. I know teachers out the wazoo and they all mostly love their job because they love teaching, because as Crystal noted, they're not doing it for the money.

With that said, teachers should not be faced with the burden of stopping a school shooter if and when one decides to act. Teachers (ALL TEACHERS), regardless of whether they carry a weapon or not, will now be the first target of a kid with a gun. This puts every teacher in harm's way... and for what?

Most school shooters commit suicide at the end of their campaign, so they don't expect to go home alive, anyway.

We don't need to restrict weapons in this country but we HAVE to restrict the ease in which teenagers and the mentally ill are getting them.

That's *my* position.
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gommi
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2008, 10:30:44 AM »

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We don't need to restrict weapons in this country but we HAVE to restrict the ease in which teenagers and the mentally ill are getting them.
Laws restricting access to guns cannot prevent the criminal minded from obtaining them. If more limits are imposed, teenagers will find guns elsewhere. Firearms are quite prevalent in your country.

Quote
With that said, teachers should not be faced with the burden of stopping a school shooter if and when one decides to act. Teachers (ALL TEACHERS), regardless of whether they carry a weapon or not, will now be the first target of a kid with a gun. This puts every teacher in harm's way... and for what?
I agree. It should not be required for teachers to carry guns, as it is not their responsibility, however should a teacher legally be able to if they choose?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 10:32:31 AM by gommi » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2008, 10:42:43 AM »

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That still doesn't address anything but my least important point.   It changes the role of teacher in a way which reduces their effectiveness as a teacher.


  And just how?  Your letting your rectum speak for you.


Quote
Schools are already safer than about any other place you can put a kid.  Any program which increases the presence of dangerous weapons which can be accidentally discharged to protect against a threat which is largely illusory is foolhardy.


Illusionary?  Look at the stats.  Hardly an "Illusion".  Guns in their holster do not just discharge.  Had you any experience with them you would know.


Quote
Gun accidents kill far more people than the sensationalized but astonishingly rare school shooter.
 

Yes, usually by a careless, untrained adult who has left a loaded gun under their mattress or in some other accessible place.

Quote
Safety at schools can be increased more by any number of other methods which don't involve packing heat(for example a defibrillator at school would likely save more people without the potential for harms your "solution"  introduces).  This sounds more like the plot of a cheesy Hollywood thriller than sound policy.

  Once an armed assailant is inside, there is no security short of an armed deterrent.
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Abraxas
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« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2008, 10:50:29 AM »

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We don't need to restrict weapons in this country but we HAVE to restrict the ease in which teenagers and the mentally ill are getting them.

Laws restricting access to guns cannot prevent the criminal minded from obtaining them. If more limits are imposed, teenagers will find guns elsewhere. Firearms are quite prevalent in your country.

Kids who shoot friends at school aren't "criminally" minded. They're insane.

If we don't address the real problem, adding more guns to the mix really doesn't do anything but make it worse.

Quote from: gommi
Quote from: Abraxas
With that said, teachers should not be faced with the burden of stopping a school shooter if and when one decides to act. Teachers (ALL TEACHERS), regardless of whether they carry a weapon or not, will now be the first target of a kid with a gun. This puts every teacher in harm's way... and for what?

I agree. It should not be required for teachers to carry guns as it is not their responsibility, however should a teacher legally be able to if they choose?

Can students? In some states you only have to be covered by "Conceal-Carry Laws" 18 .

And you forgot to address the point that some teachers with guns endangers all the others. Is it fair to do that?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 11:28:20 AM by Abraxas » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2008, 11:17:00 AM »

Many schools already employ rent-a-cops and professional hall monitors (security guards). Why not arm them rather than the teachers?

Out of all the teachers I've known, and all the rent-a-cops I've known, there are more teachers that I would trust with guns around children.
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Gojira
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« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2008, 11:26:30 AM »


Kids who shoot friends at school aren't "criminally" minded. They're insane.


Um, I don't think they are exactly shooting their "friends."  I thought it was spite that motivated these school shooters.

I think this whole idea is supposed to save money.  If security was important, schools would buy it.  If you can't, well then you come up with clever schemes in giving teachers the right to bring their own. 

I couldn't imagine, being in class, knowing that my teacher has a holstered gun.  I wonder what that would do in terms of discipline.  I don't fuck with a cop not because I don't want to go to jail or get fined or whatever.  Its because he has a gun.  Giving a teacher that kind of power could backfire.

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Abraxas
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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2008, 11:34:35 AM »

Kids who shoot friends at school aren't "criminally" minded. They're insane.

Um, I don't think they are exactly shooting their "friends."  I thought it was spite that motivated these school shooters.

Alright. "Peers" then.

What's the f*cking difference? To act like this shows a mentally unstable mind.

What you call their targets is irelevent.

Quote from: gommi
I think this whole idea is supposed to save money.  If security was important, schools would buy it.  If you can't, well then you come up with clever schemes in giving teachers the right to bring their own. 

I couldn't imagine, being in class, knowing that my teacher has a holstered gun.  I wonder what that would do in terms of discipline.  I don't fuck with a cop not because I don't want to go to jail or get fined or whatever.  Its because he has a gun.  Giving a teacher that kind of power could backfire.

My problem isn't with the teachers with guns. If they have a "Conceal-Carry" permit them they're generally understood to be responcible. My problem is with all the teachers that don't or can't bring a weapon to school and the percieved threat that future school shooters will see from their own teacher.

Again, school shooters don't expect to walk away alive. Keep that in mind when people think they'll be discouraged by the idea they'll die sooner.

WE'RE NOT ADDRESSING THE PROBLEM!
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Gojira
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2008, 11:37:48 AM »

Kids who shoot friends at school aren't "criminally" minded. They're insane.

Um, I don't think they are exactly shooting their "friends."  I thought it was spite that motivated these school shooters.

Alright. "Peers" then.

What's the f*cking difference? To act like this shows a mentally unstable mind.

What you call their targets is irelevent.


Now, now.  No need to get touchy.  I just thought it looked silly thats all. 
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Abraxas
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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2008, 11:41:14 AM »

Now, now.  No need to get touchy.  I just thought it looked silly thats all. 

I'm sincerely sorry about that. I wasn't angry at you or even what you said.

Like I said, my parents are both teachers and I think laws like this only endangers everyone in the profession. I mean, God forbid people are too discouraged by the law to become teachers... or worse, encouraged by it...

This idea is just all wrong!
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
Gojira
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« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2008, 11:49:04 AM »

Now, now.  No need to get touchy.  I just thought it looked silly thats all. 

I'm sincerely sorry about that. I wasn't angry at you or even what you said.

Like I said, my parents are both teachers and I think laws like this only endangers everyone in the profession. I mean, God forbid people are too discouraged by the law to become teachers... or worse, encouraged by it...

This idea is just all wrong!

It certainly makes me uneasy.  Usually teachers are not the ones who love to take up the opportunity.  But I grew up in a liberal hot spot.  No one who would have even remotely voted conservative.

My sister went to school in NC for a year and said that half her teachers were crazy, spouting "Pro-Right" propaganda and talking about Jesus.   Them with guns would scare the "bejesus outta me."  They certaintly hated her for being a psuedo-hippy.  I couldn't imagine what they would have done if they had a gun.
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Our democracy has created an environment of indecision at times of impending crisis. 

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