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neue regel
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« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2008, 08:31:55 AM » |
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And while most US activity has been concentrated on the 'surge" the Taliban and Al qada have been gaining strength and influence and growing in numbers on the Pakistan/ Afghan boarder. I don't disagree with that. We need to get that problem back under control, too. |
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Patton
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« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2008, 11:54:46 AM » |
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The goal of forcing the Iraqi government to take over their own destiny will not occur until a time of withdrawal is set. What part of Joe Bidens unilateral plan to arbitrarily divide Iraq into 3 parts has to do with....as you say..."forcing the Iraqi government to take over their own destiny"...when NO Iraqi leader has EVER advocated dividing their country? You'd think someone with "experience" in foreign affairs would realize most all of the problems in the Middle East were created when western conquerers decided where to draw the lines in the sand. |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Biker Dude
A TRUE Liberal!
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Live to Ride, Ride to Live
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« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2008, 12:09:14 PM » |
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Are you from Denver? I'd like to see that part of the world.
Yep, I live in Denver. Come on out, I'll show you around! And to be fair, it would have sucked to have the RNC here also. |
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 Who will watch the watchers?Now that it is over, what are we going to talk about? |
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machioveli
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« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2008, 01:19:21 PM » |
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What do you expect Hildog and Billy to say? They had a deal...you pay my campaign debt we stand behind you. I turned the TV when Billy started to speak. Four straight days of this Democrap is way to much for me. McCain has elected and will announce his VP tonight right when Obama speaks thank god I will have something else to watch besides more lies and broken promises from the democraps. I am looking foward to the debate on Sep. 26th, when McCain can call him out on all his BS.
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freethinker
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« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2008, 02:59:37 PM » |
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The goal of forcing the Iraqi government to take over their own destiny will not occur until a time of withdrawal is set. What part of Joe Bidens unilateral plan to arbitrarily divide Iraq into 3 parts has to do with....as you say..."forcing the Iraqi government to take over their own destiny"...when NO Iraqi leader has EVER advocated dividing their country? You'd think someone with "experience" in foreign affairs would realize most all of the problems in the Middle East were created when western conquerers decided where to draw the lines in the sand. There wasn't anything "arbitrary" about Joe's plan...In fact it would have undone the arbitrary border drawn by the Brits and the French in 1920 that threw three different sects/tribes shi ite Kurds and Sunni , together that created Iraq as we now know it. His plan would have divided Iraq along the old tribal lines that still exist in the minds of the Iraqi people and would have likely ended the civil war that continues and will not soon end. It would have given each group autonomy to govern themselves. As far as I know Joe is not advocating or advancing such a solution anymore although it would still likely work. Its highly unlikely that you, or anybody else, could tell Joe Biden anything about the political history of the middle east he doesn't already know. |
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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freethinker
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2008, 03:14:15 PM » |
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What do you expect Hildog and Billy to say? They had a deal...you pay my campaign debt we stand behind you. I turned the TV when Billy started to speak. Four straight days of this Democrap is way to much for me. McCain has elected and will announce his VP tonight right when Obama speaks thank god I will have something else to watch besides more lies and broken promises from the democraps. I am looking foward to the debate on Sep. 26th, when McCain can call him out on all his BS.
Mach,You have it exactly wrong, broken promises and lies are in the domain of the repiglicon camp and they have brought the perpertration of that style almost to an art form. Ya can't stand the fact that the Democratic party is united in one front against those repiglicon broken promises and lies can ya... I too am looking forward to the debate where the much smarter faster and moral Obama verbaly tears the old man a new one and leaves him babbling into his notes. Oh yeah ...did I mention Dick Morris is a big fat gossipy fag? |
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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Reaganite
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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2008, 03:27:15 PM » |
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What do you expect Hildog and Billy to say? They had a deal...you pay my campaign debt we stand behind you. I turned the TV when Billy started to speak. Four straight days of this Democrap is way to much for me. McCain has elected and will announce his VP tonight right when Obama speaks thank god I will have something else to watch besides more lies and broken promises from the democraps. I am looking foward to the debate on Sep. 26th, when McCain can call him out on all his BS.
Mach,You have it exactly wrong, broken promises and lies are in the domain of the repiglicon camp and they have brought the perpertration of that style almost to an art form. Ya can't stand the fact that the Democratic party is united in one front against those repiglicon broken promises and lies can ya... I too am looking forward to the debate where the much smarter faster and moral Obama verbaly tears the old man a new one and leaves him babbling into his notes. Oh yeah ...did I mention Dick Morris is a big fat gossipy fag? btw what pledge did republicans give that has been broken? please give quotes and links. |
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You get what you pay for America... Welcome to the Obamanation.....
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Patton
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« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2008, 04:15:15 PM » |
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As far as I know Joe is not advocating or advancing such a solution anymore although it would still likely work. Ever wonder why he no longer advocates it?...I mean if this guy is to be the "experience" your savior sorely lacks...why did his solution gain zero traction? And you, with your lifetime of foreign policy experience thinks it might "still likely work".....who is supposed to be impressed with that? Maybe it failed because it fell completely flat and no Iraqi ever embraced it.....they endured arbitrary lines drawn by foreign powers once....why in the hell would anyone want them to do it again? They've spent the last 90 years becoming Iraqi's....and here you come with your map and Sharpies to draw new lines proclaiming an end to it all because YOU think it best. Its highly unlikely that you, or anybody else, could tell Joe Biden anything about the political history of the middle east he doesn't already know. What...that having a foreign western power come in and conquer, and to redraw the lines in the sand wouldn't be well received? Don't think he got the memo. |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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freethinker
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« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2008, 04:31:45 PM » |
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btw what pledge did republicans give that has been broken? please give quotes and links. [/quote] CONTRACT WITH AMERICA; After decades of failure, the Republicans proclaimed, it was now time to dismantle the New Deal, Great Society welfare-state programs that had caused so much misery and destructiveness to the American people. Conservative editorials appeared in newspapers all across the land explaining the immorality of government's using its power to take money from one person to give it to another. Speeches filled the airways about the necessity to reign in the bureaucrats who were endlessly harassing the American people and eating out their substance. Now that Republicans were finally in charge of Congress, hundreds of departments and agencies were going to be dismantled. At the very least, we would finally see the end of the Departments of Education, Energy, and Commerce. It was time to return to the Constitution, as our Founders envisioned it, the Republicans announced.
Yes, it was the rhetoric of old. Republicans were harkening back to their libertarian roots. The New Deal programs and the Great Society programs that had been built and expanded ever since the 1930s were finally going to come to an end.
The Republicans were right about one thing: If the welfare state and the regulated economy had been repealed, it would have been one of the most monumental revolutions in American history.
Unfortunately, however, the Republican "revolution" lasted about three weeks. http://www.fff.org/freedom/0896a.asp http://www.sodahead.com/question/138372/ |
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« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 04:37:03 PM by freethinker »
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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freethinker
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« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2008, 04:50:11 PM » |
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As far as I know Joe is not advocating or advancing such a solution anymore although it would still likely work. Ever wonder why he no longer advocates it?...I mean if this guy is to be the "experience" your savior sorely lacks...why did his solution gain zero traction? And you, with your lifetime of foreign policy experience thinks it might "still likely work".....who is supposed to be impressed with that? Maybe it failed because it fell completely flat and no Iraqi ever embraced it.....they endured arbitrary lines drawn by foreign powers once....why in the hell would anyone want them to do it again? They've spent the last 90 years becoming Iraqi's....and here you come with your map and Sharpies to draw new lines proclaiming an end to it all because YOU think it best. Its highly unlikely that you, or anybody else, could tell Joe Biden anything about the political history of the middle east he doesn't already know. What...that having a foreign western power come in and conquer, and to redraw the lines in the sand wouldn't be well received? Don't think he got the memo. No Traction ?? The Iraqi constitution and the US Senate didn't get your memo Patton; Senate Endorses Plan to Divide Iraq
Action Shows Rare Bipartisan Consensus
By Shailagh Murray
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 26, 2007; 3:38 PM
Showing rare bipartisan consensus over war policy, the Senate overwhelmingly endorsed a political settlement for Iraq that would divide the country into three semi-autonomous regions.
The plan, conceived by Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Joseph R. Biden Jr. (D-Del.), was approved 75-23 as a non-binding resolution, with 26 Republican votes. It would not force President Bush to take any action, but it represents a significant milestone in the Iraq debate, carving out common ground in a debate that has grown increasingly polarized and focused on military strategy.
The Biden plan envisions a federal government system for Iraq, consisting of separate regions for Iraq's Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish populations. The structure is spelled out in Iraq's constitution, but Biden would initiate local and regional diplomatic efforts to hasten its evolution.
"This has genuine bipartisan support,and I think that's a very hopeful sign," Biden said. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/26/AR2007092601506_pf.html |
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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freethinker
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« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2008, 04:56:45 PM » |
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McCain has elected and will announce his VP tonight right when Obama speaks thank god I will have something else to watch besides more lies and broken promises from the democraps.
Sorry Mach but McShame won't be announcing until tomorrow. Word has it that he has hired a 10,000 seat venue and can't get enough asses to fill the seats...yawn... |
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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Patton
Global Moderator
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« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2008, 05:12:58 PM » |
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Other than bringing up old newspaper clippings that says the US Senate agreed to the sectioning of Iraq into thirds (somehow I don't see how Iraqi's would feel good about a western conquerers Senate agreeing to carve them up into thirds) and somehow hinting the Iraqi Constitution is amenable to Iraq being carved into thirds....perhaps you can show me where advocacy for dismembering Iraq is in their Constitution?...you never did say why he is no longer actively advocating his plan....or why there is nothing of this debated in the Iraqi parliament. |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Cass
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« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2008, 06:08:36 PM » |
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Patton likes to talk a lot about how the old warrior has all that foreign policy experience. While McCain was suffering in captivity for all those years, the war left him behind. Fortunately, in the end he was released. But along with talking a lot about that foreign policy experience, Patton never appears to share any of the realities in Iraq. Constitution? An Islamic Republic, primarily controlled by the Shia. The result of all those "democratic" purple fingers. If indeed as is claimed Iraq is a sovereign nation, should they decided to divide into more than one nation and ever figure out how to distribute all that oil, other than bombing the whole nation "back to the stone age," what's to stop them. While some like to believe all is wonderful, some reports may show that Petraeus screwed up with paying and arming the Sunni sheiks. But no doubt a BBC article is only a "lefty" one. If it doesn't come from FAUX, Rushbo, or maybe the Moonie Times, it has to be too far left for Patton. Just the final statement about those Petraeus armed and trained, but it is worth the question how can the U.S. continue to control the choices of Iraqis? Are they are not a sovereign nation? Or is that claim just one more Bush lie? "As we return to the US base at Camp Apache, we pass through many more checkpoints, all of them manned by groups of fighters from the Sons of Iraq. While these militias wait to be integrated into the Iraqi armed forces, Adhamiyah is being carved up into fiefdoms - something that could mean more violence once the Americans leave." Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/7584962.stm |
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\\"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die.\\" Edward Kennedy, U.S.
Senator
The old lion of the Senate, though a lion in winter, has lived to do more for this nation than John or Bobby though
who knows what life would be like now had they lived.
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freethinker
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« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2008, 08:54:31 AM » |
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Other than bringing up old newspaper clippings that says the US Senate agreed to the sectioning of Iraq into thirds (somehow I don't see how Iraqi's would feel good about a western conquerers Senate agreeing to carve them up into thirds) and somehow hinting the Iraqi Constitution is amenable to Iraq being carved into thirds....perhaps you can show me where advocacy for dismembering Iraq is in their Constitution?...you never did say why he is no longer actively advocating his plan....or why there is nothing of this debated in the Iraqi parliament. Although the Iraqi constitution does not define the regions it makes an allowance for the formation of "automonosly governed regions" within the umbrella of the Iraqi federal government. From article 121 on there are hundreds of references to the "regions" and what they can and can't do independant of the other regions. These provisions for atonomy within the larger government were not origonally considered and Biden's plan recognizes the changes they made and why they are there. The constitution does already recognize the autonomy of Kurdish region to the north ( see article 137 in the constitution) and allows the people of Iraq to decide the boarders of other regions. The Biden plan simply recognizes who the Iraqi people are ,what the utimitly want and a possible solution to form a peace between three divergent groups who are unlikely to ever get along dispite an artificial boarder that encompasses them all. BAGHDAD, Oct. 11 — Iraq’s Shiite-dominated Parliament approved a law on Wednesday enabling provinces to unite to form autonomous regions, in spite of vehement opposition by Sunni Arab leaders who said it could splinter the republic and disadvantage the minority Sunni population.
The vote was a resounding victory for Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, leader of the dominant Shiite bloc, who wants to form an autonomous state from nine predominantly Shiite provinces of southern Iraq, a region that includes much of the nation’s oil and other natural resources.
Mr. Hakim cast the result as a victory for democracy. “The road is open for all the Iraqi people to form any region they want, and it is up to the Iraqi people basically to decide this issue,” he said. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/12/world/middleeast/12iraq.html?n=Top/News/World/Countries%20and%20Territories/Iraq |
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« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 09:29:48 AM by freethinker »
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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