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Author Topic: Why do Republicans think like this?  (Read 1306 times)
Retro Fit
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« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2008, 07:27:06 PM »

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Yet another intellectually lazy response. Just because a comment is a stereotype does not automatically mean it's incorrect. Saying that Muslims are more likely to commit acts of terrorism than any other ethnic group is a stereotype but it's also true. Saying women are physically weaker than than men is a stereotype but it's also true. Saying a young African-American male has a better chance of ending up in Prison than ending up in College is a stereotype, but it's a stereotype that has plenty of evidence to support it.

  I guess I took offense because I'm a Republican.  But, I'm a Ron Paul (Constitutionalist) Republican which only means that I'm a Libertarian.  I think you are mostly commenting on neo-cons, which I despise.  Neo-cons have earned their poor reputation and are a stain against all Republicans.  I think Bush, Cheney and their entire cabinet should be in prison for treason and crimes against humanity.  I know I speak for a large percentage of Republicans who want the neo-cons gone.  Which would put your 99.9% out to lunch.  Just because all the Republicans you happen to know are mindless sheep doesn't mean all Republicans are ignorant.  I just wanted to clear that up.
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I agree with you here. Spending has been ridiculous. Obama's spending proposals should give everyone pause, too. The ramifications of sweeping tax increases could be devastating.

  It's not just Obama's economic proposals that are faulty.  McCain's are just as bad if not worse (debatable), but neither one appears to have the slightest notion about how to fix our monetary problems.  One things for sure, we cannot continue to remain in Iraq and we certainly cannot afford to attack Iran.  The longer we stay in Iraq, the deeper the hole (grave) we dig for ourselves.  We spend a billion a week there and the calenders ticking.
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neue regel
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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2008, 07:38:15 PM »

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One things for sure, we cannot continue to remain in Iraq and we certainly cannot afford to attack Iran.

The day is coming soon. Petraeus is recommending troop reductions.

As for Iran...I don't know. On one hand, we should leave them alone. On the other, they are very dangerous. Maybe just put diplomatic pressure on them for now.
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Retro Fit
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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2008, 07:47:56 PM »

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The day is coming soon. Petraeus is recommending troop reductions.

As for Iran...I don't know. On one hand, we should leave them alone. On the other, they are very dangerous. Maybe just put diplomatic pressure on them for now.

well, it best come real soon.  Remember, we still have to divert a goodly amount of those troops to Afghanistan so we will still be shelling (no pun intended) out the cash, just not near as much.
   And I do not see Iran as any threat to our mainland.  Iran stands to make a lot of money on supplying nuclear powered electricity in the region.  Why we do not just let the U.N. (whom we pay, by the way, to handle just such an incident) over see their uranium enrichment, is beyond me.  Personally, I think the only reason were fucking with Iran is because they are planning to open a middle east oil exchange that will price the oil in EURO's not Dollars.  I don't think it has a god damn thing to do with uranium enrichment.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2008, 08:23:54 PM »

I agree with you here. Spending has been ridiculous. Obama's spending proposals should give everyone pause, too. The ramifications of sweeping tax increases could be devastating.

Both McCain's and Obama's spending and tax cut plans would balloon the deficit if passed as proposed. McCain's would expand the deficit more than Obama's.
Those are the facts. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/411750_updated_candidates_summary.pdf

Let's look more closely at the claim that spending is "exploding."

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The data show this claim is not correct. The principal way that analysts measure trends in federal spending and revenues over time is as a share of the U.S. economy (that is, as a share of the gross domestic product). The data show that while federal spending has risen since 2001, it remains lower as a share of the economy than its average level over the last 30 years, even when expenditures for Iraq, Afghanistan, and relief from the recent hurricanes are included. In short, federal spending is not unusually high. (Of course, the fact that outlays are near the historical average does not establish whether they are at an appropriate level, which requires a substantive policy judgment. But claims that spending has “exploded” are incorrect.) http://www.cbpp.org/budget-slideshow.htm



« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 08:26:41 PM by jpn of Seattle » Logged

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Retro Fit
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« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2008, 09:38:49 PM »

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The data show this claim is not correct. The principal way that analysts measure trends in federal spending and revenues over time is as a share of the U.S. economy (that is, as a share of the gross domestic product). The data show that while federal spending has risen since 2001, it remains lower as a share of the economy than its average level over the last 30 years, even when expenditures for Iraq, Afghanistan, and relief from the recent hurricanes are included. In short, federal spending is not unusually high. (Of course, the fact that outlays are near the historical average does not establish whether they are at an appropriate level, which requires a substantive policy judgment. But claims that spending has “exploded” are incorrect.)

  Yet, but If we compile the data as just X amount of dollars spent, and do not compare it as a share of the GDP, we find that Bush is spending money like a school girl.  The "make more money, spend more money" scenario is quite accurate on the private level, but, since the GDP total does not necessarily equate into more federal funding, and since we know the feds have borrowed billions from foreign investors to help pay for war funding (funds that will be paid back with taxpayer money) I cannot see how this method of compilation makes any sense what so ever.
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Irwin
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« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2008, 10:27:35 AM »

I know it appears like it’s just an inflammatory rhetorical question, but I am trying to be serious here. Why do Conservatives and Republican Party members insist on being habitually misinformed and ignorant?

Nearly all of my extended family members are proud card-carrying Conservative Republicans. Consequently, I have lived my entire life with an imitate perspective into how Republicans think and into what makes a Republican a Republican. What I found is that the beliefs, attitudes, and motivations of my Republican family members  dovetail almost seamlessly with those of the national Republican Party at large – much more so that those of Democrats I know (who generally tend to think more deeply about the issues and are far more nuanced in their acceptance of the national party platform).

There are essentially only 2 main factors that drive the Republican Party and drive Americans to stay Republican or become Republican – even when it’s clearly against their own best interest. Those two factors are Fear and Ignorance. Allow me to provide a few examples of what I am talking about. 99.9% of Republicans are Republicans are one-issue voters who can be categorized as follows:

1.   EVANGELICALS – These are Republicans who vote Republican based solely on Abortion and Gay Marriage.
2.   REDNECKS – These are Republicans who vote Republican based solely on Gun Rights.
3.   RICH PEOPLE – These are Republicans who vote Republican based solely on Tax Policy.

99.9% of Republicans are one or two issue voters that can quickly and easily be separated into one of the 3 categories above. Luckily, for Republicans, all 3 groups are extremely fearful of Muslims. Evangelicals are afraid of Muslims because they view Islam as a dangerous threat to Christianity. Rednecks are fearful of Muslims because they don’t know any Muslims, are ignorant of Islam, and as a result are racist against Muslims. Rich people are fearful of Muslims because the threat of terrorism and our dependence on foreign oil threatens their checking account, their investments, and their overall personal wealth.

 Consequently, getting  their base to turn out on election day is a no-brainer for Republican leaders. All they need to do is continue fostering this misplaced fear and ignorance among their constituency.  Don’t believe me? In the last two campaign cycles (2004 & now), look at all the Republican and/or Conservative emails you have received in a mass distribution list, then look at how many of them were not fear-based. I am certain the answer is zero. In 2004, it was that a vote for John Kerry was a vote for another terrorist attack on the United States. Today it is that Barack Obama is a radical Muslim and a vote for Barack Obama means putting a radical Muslim in charge of the country.

Such a strategy would never work in the Democratic Party because such a ludicrously stupid and false suggestion about the opposition candidate would never stick – regardless of how badly Democrats wanted to believe it. Democrats, as a whole, are simply too well informed for such tactics to work. 

Yet in the Republican Party, despite well documented and widespread overwhelming evidence to the contrary, false accusations stick like glue – because their party members are so ill informed, uneducated, and generally ignorant. My question is why?


The Republican Party represents a tiny minority of Americans, Oil/Coal, Military Contractors, the Gun Lobby, Mega Corporations, the super rich. They have represented the super-rich since Reconstruction. How does an elite minority manage to get majority votes? It is a dilemma, but one they are good at.

1) Shout about tax cuts. This works brilliantly. Rich people get lots of money to line their pockets. The average Joe, getting most of his news from TV, hears "Tax cut" thinks it's a good idea, even though he's not getting much of one.

2) Say government doesn't work, take office and set out to prove it. The average joe, sees not the sabotage, but the result. Again, because of TV. The average American is pre-disposed culturally to resent government and gets inclined to vote for those who stoke this resentment.

3) Wars. Lots of them. Big ones. They help their military contractor friends, divert money from domestic needs and distract the average joe from his sinking paycheck and schools with flag-waving patriotism. Since no average Joe never questions a chest-beating "patriot" in time of war, Republicans capitalize on war to paint themselves as the real Americans, and not to mention, trustworthy on foreign policy. This belief is only supportable because the average Joe gets all his news from TV, where details of bungled foreign policies rarely make snappy headlines.

4) They are gonna take your guns. This not only feeds cash to the gun lobby, it scares the average rural Joe into voting for them.

5) More moral than thou. This expands voter rolls by creating the impression of a party that is of God and a party that is not. This gives them cover for the cheating and blind theft that they regularly engage in.

6) Education is dangerous. Educated people are less likely to buy propaganda campaigns of knee-jerk patriotism. Education must be underfunded to the point of near destruction and college aide, especially must stopped. Debt will keep those have education quiet.

7) Lying is essential because any facts will get in the way of your propaganda campaign.

In short, if you represent a small minority of super-rich, get votes with God, a Gun and a flag, get into office so you can pay off your wealthy buddies, line your pockets and not pay taxes and destroy education so you can keep the propaganda campaign going.

The Republican party is a tumor that is best removed.
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Retro Fit
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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2008, 11:42:44 AM »

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The Republican Party represents a tiny minority of Americans, Oil/Coal, Military Contractors, the Gun Lobby, Mega Corporations, the super rich. They have represented the super-rich since Reconstruction. How does an elite minority manage to get majority votes? It is a dilemma, but one they are good at.

1)Shout about tax cuts. This works brilliantly. Rich people get lots of money to line their pockets. The average Joe, getting most of his news from TV, hears "Tax cut" thinks it's a good idea, even though he's not getting much of one.

2) Say government doesn't work, take office and set out to prove it. The average joe, sees not the sabotage, but the result. Again, because of TV. The average American is pre-disposed culturally to resent government and gets inclined to vote for those who stoke this resentment.

3) Wars. Lots of them. Big ones. They help their military contractor friends, divert money from domestic needs and distract the average joe from his sinking paycheck and schools with flag-waving patriotism. Since no average Joe never questions a chest-beating "patriot" in time of war, Republicans capitalize on war to paint themselves as the real Americans, and not to mention, trustworthy on foreign policy. This belief is only supportable because the average Joe gets all his news from TV, where details of bungled foreign policies rarely make snappy headlines.

4) They are gonna take your guns. This not only feeds cash to the gun lobby, it scares the average rural Joe into voting for them.

5) More moral than thou. This expands voter rolls by creating the impression of a party that is of God and a party that is not. This gives them cover for the cheating and blind theft that they regularly engage in.

6) Education is dangerous. Educated people are less likely to buy propaganda campaigns of knee-jerk patriotism. Education must be underfunded to the point of near destruction and college aide, especially must stopped. Debt will keep those have education quiet.

7) Lying is essential because any facts will get in the way of your propaganda campaign.

In short, if you represent a small minority of super-rich, get votes with God, a Gun and a flag, get into office so you can pay off your wealthy buddies, line your pockets and not pay taxes and destroy education so you can keep the propaganda campaign going.

The Republican party is a tumor that is best removed.

  Where did you cut and paste this from Irwin.....It's good.
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Totino
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« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2008, 07:44:16 PM »

Stereotyping will never get you anywhere ryan

Yet another intellectually lazy response. Just because a comment is a stereotype does not automatically mean it's incorrect. Saying that Muslims are more likely to commit acts of terrorism than any other ethnic group is a stereotype but it's also true. Saying women are physically weaker than than men is a stereotype but it's also true. Saying a young African-American male has a better chance of ending up in Prison than ending up in College is a stereotype, but it's a stereotype that has plenty of evidence to support it.

1. Do non-Muslim ethnic groups commit acts of terrorism? Of course.
2. Are some women physically stronger than some men? Certainly.
3. Do some young African-American men go to college instead of prision? Absolutely.

However, in any matter, it is impossible to operate off of or draw accurate conclusions based upon the exceptions. It's no different in politics. Certainly there are some extremely intelligent, insightful, and well-educated members of the Republican Party who vote for their candidate based upon a in-depth examination of that candidate's stance on many different issues.

Unfortunately, the Party is not defined by these members nor does the Republican establishment and leadership cater to these members. It is universially agreed - let me repeat - UNIVERSIALLY AGREED that in 2004 Dr. James Dobson and Dr. James Dobson alone single-handily handed George W. Bush a 2nd term in office by turning out millions of single-issue (abortion / gay marriage) Evangelical voters who went to the polls and pulled the lever for George W. Bush based SOLELY and ONLY upon the single issue of Abortion and/or the single issue Gay Marriage without any consideration whatsoever for Bush's position on the economy, on the war, on healthcare, on education, or any other major issue.  

In fact, after the election, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney picked up the phone and called Dr. Dobson to PERSONALLY thank him for handing them a 2nd term in the White House. That kind of single-issue power simply does not exist on the Democrat side - and thank God for that - because it's possibly the most frighteningly ignorant form of political participation a person can practice.
The difference between your analogy and Republicans? You have no basis for your statement.

So simple....
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gomper7
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« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2008, 10:44:47 PM »

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For 40 years democrats have scared old peopel into thinking republicans will take away thier ss benifits and the poor that thier welfare will be taken away as to ensure a solid voting bloc of ignorant people and you want to talk about republicans scaring people.

This is not an argument. You are not saying anything. You don't get to make this argument unless you can back it up with FACTS and EVIDENCE. I am not hearing Barack Obama telling old people the Republicans are going to take away their social security checks. I am not hearing Joe Biden telling old people the Republicans are going to take away their social security checks. I am not hearing Nancy Pelosi telling old people that, or Harry Reid, or any of the other Democratic leadership saying that. So what are you talking about? Exactly who in the Democratic leadership are you referring to? Please cite specific names and quotations of Democratic leaders telling old people Republicans are going to take away their social security checks.

You see, this is what I am referring to when I talk about the intellectual laziness around here. People make these inaccurate and intelluctual lazy comments with absolutely no evidence to support them.

I love this post.  This is classic Ryan.  He complains about a lack of evidence and intellectually lazy arguments.  This he does in a thread in which his own original post is basically that all of his extended family represent the entirety of the republican party, and that the entirety of the Republican party are ignorant one issue voters.  To make matters worse, he does not even make a good argument that his extended family actually fall into that category, as this assumption seems to be based only on the fact that they disagree with him.  Let alone the preposterous, facts and evidence less, intellectually lazy argument that these relatives somehow represent the entire party. 
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Retro Fit
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« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2008, 03:30:53 AM »

Gommi, he sums it up nicely in the first sentence of this thread.  He said:"I know it appears like it’s just an inflammatory rhetorical question, but I am trying to be serious here." ..Yes, it does sound like inflammatory rhetoric because thats exactly what it is and what he meant it to be.  But, instead of being honest and just saying "Why are Republicans such assholes" he has to pretend that he's not pissed by trying to give the illusion that he just wants to calmly discuss the topic.  Ryan, just say what you think.  Don't be such a puss.
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gomper7
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« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2008, 08:37:45 AM »

Republicans will take away your SS

After his win in 2004, Bush barnstormed the country for six months trying to translate the bounce he earned from his victory into privatizing (i.e., destroying) SS.

It's not a scare tactic. Destroying SS is one of the leading goals of Neocon Republicans. The incredible success and popularity of Social Security repudiates the most cherished ideologies of Neocons.

So they hate it. And try to destroy it every chance they get.

jpn,
This is just non sense.  Even neocons aren't insane enough to want to destroy a program simply because it is popular.

Bush was not trying to destroy social security, and he was not even trying to privatize it.  He was trying to change the rules to make it more like a retirement savings account and allow people to invest their money, which would give the potential to earn more than the 4 to 6 % interest that the SS trust fund currently makes in government bonds, and would make whatever interest it made not be paid by the US taxpayer.

The problem with social security as it is structured, is it is essentially a ponzi scheme.  It has been a very successful one over the last 70 years or so, because it has enjoyed over that entire time that element which makes such a scheme successful - growth.  Any ponzi scheme works fabulously for its investors as long as it has more people paying in than taking out.  Soon however, more people will be taking out, and will be taking out for longer periods as people live longer.  Remember, SS recipients are guaranteed to receive benefits for their lifetime, not just until the amount they contributed over their working life runs out.  When the amount people are being paid overuns the amounts people paid in plus the interest earned, the system will be insolvent.  Simple math.  The question is when this will occur.

Personally, I think Bush's plan is not the correct one as it changes the nature of the system too much and potentially destroys the insurance aspect of it.  I however feel no compunction to lie about his plan in order to make that argument.
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Retro Fit
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« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2008, 02:08:17 PM »

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The problem with social security as it is structured, is it is essentially a ponzi scheme.  It has been a very successful one over the last 70 years or so, because it has enjoyed over that entire time that element which makes such a scheme successful - growth.  Any ponzi scheme works fabulously for its investors as long as it has more people paying in than taking out.  Soon however, more people will be taking out, and will be taking out for longer periods as people live longer.  Remember, SS recipients are guaranteed to receive benefits for their lifetime, not just until the amount they contributed over their working life runs out.  When the amount people are being paid overuns the amounts people paid in plus the interest earned, the system will be insolvent.  Simple math.  The question is when this will occur.

Personally, I think Bush's plan is not the correct one as it changes the nature of the system too much and potentially destroys the insurance aspect of it.  I however feel no compunction to lie about his plan in order to make that argument.

  Well said.
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ryan77
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« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2008, 09:04:12 AM »

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I love this post.  This is classic Ryan.  He complains about a lack of evidence and intellectually lazy arguments.  This he does in a thread in which his own original post is basically that all of his extended family represent the entirety of the republican party,


Anytime someone prefaces a summary of another person's comment with "basically" - as in "basically what he is saying is....." you know they are about to misrepresent what the other person was saying. You are no exception to this rule. I was not "basically" saying that my family represents the entire Republican Party. I said that living with and growing up with Republicans revealed to me that my family's beliefs and the beliefs of the Republican Party national platform matched much more indentically than those of Democrats I know and the Democratic Party national platform.   

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and that the entirety of the Republican party are ignorant one issue voters.
 

There is no question that a huge percentage of Republicans vote Republican based solely on the issue of Abortion, solely on the issue of Gun Rights, solely on the issue of Taxes, etc. This is evidenced by George Bush's relelection win in 2004 which was the direct result of single-issue evangelical voters turning out to the polls to vote solely based on Abortion and/or Gay Marriage. This is not an opinion. This is a fact.



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To make matters worse, he does not even make a good argument that his extended family actually fall into that category, as this assumption seems to be based only on the fact that they disagree with him.  Let alone the preposterous, facts and evidence less, intellectually lazy argument that these relatives somehow represent the entire party. 


The only thing notable about your post is ad hominem attacks. Instead of attacking the arguments made by your opponent, you attack the arguer. It's the most sophomoric and weakest possible approach to debate - commonly employed by children.

If my arguments are so obviously false, and my debate methods so clearly contradictory, those arguments should be easy for you to debunk in and of themselves without the need to attack personally the individual making them. Only people who are intellectually incapable of constructing an intelligent response to an argument feel it necessary to attack the person making the argument - again much like children do.
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Retro Fit
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« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2008, 10:43:01 AM »

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Only people who are intellectually incapable of constructing an intelligent response to an argument feel it necessary to attack the person making the argument - again much like children do.
  Bearing this in mind,  your attack on alleged Republican ideology falls under the same category, as well as your attack on any who dispute it.  With childlike precision you have reduced us all, yourself included, into one trick ponies.
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ryan77
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« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2008, 11:57:16 AM »

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Bearing this in mind,  your attack on alleged Republican ideology falls under the same category.....

No it doesn't. An attack on an "ideology" is not an attack on a person. An ideology is not a person. 


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...as well as your attack on any who dispute it
 


I have only "attacked" arguments here - not people - except to point out your use of ad hominem, which is not an attack, but rather a statement of fact.

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With childlike precision you have reduced us all, yourself included, into one trick ponies.

Ad Hominem personal attack #2. Again, just a simple statement of fact. You use ad hominem attacks when you either cannot or will not address arguments being made by your opponent. Statement of fact only.
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