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Author Topic: Why do Republicans think like this?  (Read 1313 times)
Patton
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« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2008, 01:47:16 PM »

Based on this biased opinion piece, are we to believe that Democrats don't have "one issue voters?"

Just askin'
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« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2008, 06:27:05 PM »

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No it doesn't. An attack on an "ideology" is not an attack on a person. An ideology is not a person. 

  Did you or did you not attach a singular ideology onto "all" Republicans?  Republicans are all people.  You and I both know what you meant regardless of your denial.
Quote
I have only "attacked" arguments here - not people - except to point out your use of ad hominem, which is not an attack, but rather a statement of fact.

  No, you attacked Republicans BECAUSE of their alleged ideology.  Your attempt at dissecting your rhetoric to give the illusion that your post wasn't an attack on any one and all Republicans is going to be a lesson in futility for you. Once again, your meaning was very clear.

Quote
Ad Hominem personal attack #2. Again, just a simple statement of fact. You use ad hominem attacks when you either cannot or will not address arguments being made by your opponent. Statement of fact only.

  You mean "I", as in "all Republicans"?  The argument was addressed.  Our opinions differ.  Neither you or I produced sufficient evidence to come to a definitive conclusion.  Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2008, 05:34:12 AM »

jpn,
This is just non sense.  Even neocons aren't insane enough to want to destroy a program simply because it is popular.
Not simply because it's popular. They are trying to destroy it because it's a hugely successful, hugely popular big government program. It redistributes money down the food chain. This really upsets them because it totally repudiates their government-can't-ever-be-the-solution-to-anything ideology. So I'd say it's accurate to say that Social Security's popularity is one of the leading reasons they want to destroy it.

Bush was not trying to destroy social security, and he was not even trying to privatize it.  He was trying to change the rules to make it more like a retirement savings account and allow people to invest their money, which would give the potential to earn more than the 4 to 6 % interest that the SS trust fund currently makes in government bonds, and would make whatever interest it made not be paid by the US taxpayer.

You're starting to sound like McCain. McCain said a few months ago that he doesn't want to privatize SS, but people should be able to invest some of their contribution into private accounts--which is privatizing SS. You can twist and turn all you want, but the minute you begin diverting SS contributions from the SS trust fund into private accounts, you are privatizing SS. The diverted contributions are no longer available to fund existing liabilities. They will have to be made up for elsewhere. In former Secretary of the Treasury Paul O'Neil's book, he said that he and Alan Greenspan ran the numbers to see what a reasonable plan of weaning America off of the SS system and into private accounts. They came up with a cost of about one trillion dollars.

Remember, SS recipients are guaranteed to receive benefits for their lifetime, not just until the amount they contributed over their working life runs out.  When the amount people are being paid overuns the amounts people paid in plus the interest earned, the system will be insolvent.  Simple math.  The question is when this will occur.
I posted an answer to this oft-repeated objection at the bottom of page two of this thread. Perhaps the math has a few more complications that you care to bother with. 

Personally, I think Bush's plan is not the correct one as it changes the nature of the system too much and potentially destroys the insurance aspect of it.

No argument here.

I however feel no compunction to lie about his plan in order to make that argument.

Oh, we look at an issue, arrive at different conclusions, present our arguments (my argument includes facts and studies from non-partisan sources, while your argument includes merely your opinions) and that makes me a liar?

It sure is pleasant having these adult discussions with you Gomp. You're really a sweet person.
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gomper7
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« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2008, 12:44:10 PM »

Quote
I love this post.  This is classic Ryan.  He complains about a lack of evidence and intellectually lazy arguments.  This he does in a thread in which his own original post is basically that all of his extended family represent the entirety of the republican party,


Anytime someone prefaces a summary of another person's comment with "basically" - as in "basically what he is saying is....." you know they are about to misrepresent what the other person was saying. You are no exception to this rule. I was not "basically" saying that my family represents the entire Republican Party. I said that living with and growing up with Republicans revealed to me that my family's beliefs and the beliefs of the Republican Party national platform matched much more indentically than those of Democrats I know and the Democratic Party national platform.   

Ryan, from your original post:
Quote
Nearly all of my extended family members are proud card-carrying Conservative Republicans. Consequently, I have lived my entire life with an imitate perspective into how Republicans think and into what makes a Republican a Republican.

You clearly state that being around your extended family gives you, in your own words an intimate perspective into how republicans in general think and what makes a republican a republican.  You are claiming here that you understand all republicans, or at least the vast majority, and how they think based on your family.  That was my summary of your post.  If I misrepresented it, I assure you that was not my intent and I apologize.  I do not however believe that I did misrepresent it.

Quote
Quote
and that the entirety of the Republican party are ignorant one issue voters.
 

There is no question that a huge percentage of Republicans vote Republican based solely on the issue of Abortion, solely on the issue of Gun Rights, solely on the issue of Taxes, etc. This is evidenced by George Bush's relelection win in 2004 which was the direct result of single-issue evangelical voters turning out to the polls to vote solely based on Abortion and/or Gay Marriage. This is not an opinion. This is a fact.


No this is not fact, this is your opinion, one which you have supported with your observations, but not evidence or facts.

I am a Republican, I am pro-choice.  My immediate family are all Republicans, and are all pro-choice and are atheists.  I support gun rights but have no objection to a waiting period.  Most of my friends are Republicans, and disagree on many issues and vote based on a large number of issues.  Personally, I believe that most Republicans are not single issue evangelicals concerned primarily with abortion and gay marriage.  This is evidenced by the fact that McCain is now the Republican presidential nominee.  If the Republican party were run by the single minded, single issue evangelicals you claim are its majority, Hucabee or Romney would be the nominee.

Is any of what I have said really evidence of the true nature of the Republican mindset?  In my opinion, No, what I have provided here are my experiences and opinions and I would not consider them to rise to the status of true evidence.  They are however at least as compelling as arguments as what you have brought to the table.


Quote
Quote
To make matters worse, he does not even make a good argument that his extended family actually fall into that category, as this assumption seems to be based only on the fact that they disagree with him.  Let alone the preposterous, facts and evidence less, intellectually lazy argument that these relatives somehow represent the entire party. 


The only thing notable about your post is ad hominem attacks. Instead of attacking the arguments made by your opponent, you attack the arguer. It's the most sophomoric and weakest possible approach to debate - commonly employed by children.

If my arguments are so obviously false, and my debate methods so clearly contradictory, those arguments should be easy for you to debunk in and of themselves without the need to attack personally the individual making them. Only people who are intellectually incapable of constructing an intelligent response to an argument feel it necessary to attack the person making the argument - again much like children do.

I will point out a couple phrases from what you quoted:  "He does not make a good argument".  "Fact and evidence less, intellectually lazy argument".
I said the argument you made was not good.  I never said Ryan was not good.  I said the argument you made was void of facts and evidence and was intellectually lazy ( phrasing specifically chosen because it is the way YOU stated an earlier reply to another poster)  I did not say Ryan was devoid of facts or evidence or intellectually lazy.  Read my post again, my attacks were all against your arguments, not you.    Yes, I made a strongly worded post and made sure to emphasize the "he" to show who it was who made the argument I was attacking, but the attacks where against the argument, not the arguer.

I believe I have shown that your arguments are based on your personal opinions and experiences, not on facts and evidence.  As such, I believe I have debunked your attempt to represent them as fact.  I believe the type of argumentation you have used is flawed, but it is common among adults, and having read your posts over the past couple years, I believe you are a thoughtful intelligent adult.  I also believe you are so mired in your partisan hatred for the Republican party that you sometimes allow emotionality to get the better of you when you are arguing.  This is also something that mature, intelligent adults do from time to time and I certainly know that I am not immune from it, so I will certainly not try to imply that any of your argumentation was childish.

Having said all this, I will admit the opening of my post, the quip about "this is Classic Ryan" was inflammatory and probably unnecessary to the point I was trying to make.  So, if the tone of that quip seemed overly familiar or offensive to you, you have my apology. 
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« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2008, 03:44:35 PM »

Ryan, IMHO, you have not, as gomper stated, produced viable evidence to support your claim that 99.9% of Republicans think alike.  For example, though I'm a republican, I'm pro choice, I'm pro gay marriage, Far from
evangelical, I'm an agnostic.  I'm pro gun rights. Pro Constitution, anti war, pro personal freedom, pro small federal government, pro personal accountability, anti welfare state, anti federal reserve, anti fiat dollar, And most of my friends are Democrats with money.  Ryan, you are either very young and inexperience, or middle aged and ignorant.  By your recent posts, You have a chip on your shoulder against Republicans.  I believe your real problem is with your relatives, your parents in particular, and that you have shifted your anger at them to your assault on Republicans.  I'm a Republican and I can assure you that I am nothing like your parents.  You are wasting your time bitching about a party, when that time and energy could be used to productively address the issues.  What it will all boil down to in the end is you will have to learn to forgive your parents and accept them for what they are, and you will have to learn to distinguish  whats important and real from what is petty and driven by anger.  Good luck.
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« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2008, 04:46:56 PM »

On the one hand, Ryan, I know where you're coming from. I listened to a couple hours of empty name calling and criticism of Obama at a family cookout this weekend. Not one, I repeat, not one single policy of his was discussed, just insults and generalizations. The exception was when asked why I was voting for him, I said his energy policy. The only criticism that I heard about it was that he wasn't actually going to do any of it, unsubstantiated.

This was bothersome to me. Not because my family members are more conservative than myself, but because what they were talking about wasn't actually politics. Without a frame of reference as to the subject of the conversation's party or ideology, an outside observer wouldn't have been able to tell what actual positions or philosophies of government were being extolled. My family members are not rude people, ten years ago you wouldn't have heard insults and innuendo at my family's cookout. Many of them have been caught up in divisive us-vs-them pseudo-politics


On the other hand, a few days before I went to the cookout, I ran into an old friend who has a hard liberal bent. Over a beer, he demanded that I vote for Obama, After I had just explained why I was going to vote for Obama. Oddly enough, I didn't hear one single f'ing comment on actual policy from him either, just a vague assertion that Biden is 'too conservative'. I was finally able to change the subject by telling him that I wanted Obama to win and that the blind, idiotic personality cult that some of his supporters belong to is actually hurting chances come November.


The lesson to be taken away from this? Idiocy comes in all varieties of the political spectrum. Your (and mine) experiences with pseudo-conservative relatives can no more be generalized to 99.9% of Republicans than the personality cult can be generalized to 99.9% of Democrats.

I'd say it's more like 70%.
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« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2008, 07:14:27 PM »

Quote
Ryan, IMHO, you have not, as gomper stated, produced viable evidence to support your claim that 99.9% of Republicans think alike.  For example, though I'm a republican, I'm pro choice, I'm pro gay marriage, Far from evangelical, I'm an agnostic.  I'm pro gun rights. Pro Constitution, anti war, pro personal freedom, pro small federal government, pro personal accountability, anti welfare state, anti federal reserve, anti fiat dollar,


Well, you certainly have the right to call yourself whatever you want, but the beliefs you describe above are those of a Libertarian - not a
Republican. But I digress.



Quote
And most of my friends are Democrats with money.  Ryan, you are either very young and inexperience, or middle aged and ignorant.  By your recent posts, You have a chip on your shoulder against Republicans.  I believe your real problem is with your relatives, your parents in particular, and that you have shifted your anger at them to your assault on Republicans. 

While I appreciate your free pseudo-psychological anaylsis via the web, my parents are actually dyed-in-the-wool card carrying Democrats who have never voted for a Republican in their life and would never dream of it. The Republicans to whom I refer are my Mom's brothers and sisters (and their spouses & children) as well as many members of my father's family (and their spouses & children).
 
Quote
You will have to learn to distinguish  whats important and real from what is petty and driven by anger.


Advice to avoid being "petty" and "angry" coming from a Republican? Now that's funny. Please re-watch the Republican National Convention - particularly Mitt, Rudy, and Palin's speeches and applause lines regarding Barack Obama and Al Gore's private jet and then lecture me again on petty anger.
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« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2008, 07:44:35 PM »

To answer the main question "why do they think like this?" the reason is human nature. Human nature is inherrently conservative, if it worked in the past it ought to work again. Unfortunately for human nature, history is inherrently liberal, the problems of the past are not the problems of now. That is why I believe conservative parties have been so successful, they appeal to people that fear the future and the changes it might bring, and I'm sure everyone fears the future at some time. Liberals on the other hand tend to work for a better tomorow and not so much the issues of today this makes them less popular in general, but grants them success when conservatives screw something up.
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« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2008, 08:31:51 PM »

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To answer the main question "why do they think like this?" the reason is human nature. Human nature is inherrently conservative, if it worked in the past it ought to work again. Unfortunately for human nature, history is inherrently liberal, the problems of the past are not the problems of now. That is why I believe conservative parties have been so successful, they appeal to people that fear the future and the changes it might bring, and I'm sure everyone fears the future at some time. Liberals on the other hand tend to work for a better tomorow and not so much the issues of today this makes them less popular in general, but grants them success when conservatives screw something up.

  What a load of tripe.  Human nature is neither inherently conservative nor inherently liberal.  Human nature is dependent on circumstance, up bringing, environment and a whole slew of variables.  Also, the problems of the past differ from today only in technology and problems associated with technology.  History, unfortunately, repeats itself because mankind does not learn from his mistakes.  If we must separate this down party lines, lets get to the core problems:  Republicans tend to be rich people who feel they are better then others which gives them a tendency to take advantage of those they see as inferior.  Democrats, on the other hand, are people who think the United States government has god like characteristics, in as much as they can throw money at any problem and it will be solved.  Both parties, however appear to think that the government can just print up as much money as they want without suffering the consequences of such an act.  And, both parties are greedy and careless because they both know (from history) what happens when you over inflate a currency but neither party cares as long as the shit doesn't hit the fan on their watch.
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« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2008, 08:42:50 PM »

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Well, you certainly have the right to call yourself whatever you want, but the beliefs you describe above are those of a Libertarian - not a
Republican. But I digress.

 Yes, as I already stated, I'm more a libertarian in practice.

Quote
While I appreciate your free pseudo-psychological anaylsis via the web, my parents are actually dyed-in-the-wool card carrying Democrats who have never voted for a Republican in their life and would never dream of it. The Republicans to whom I refer are my Mom's brothers and sisters (and their spouses & children) as well as many members of my father's family (and their spouses & children).

  I do have a problem with psycho analyzing people.  I will stand by my comment, however, that you are misdirecting your energy in a wasteful manor.  You'd be far better off attacking the issues, not the parties.

Quote
Advice to avoid being "petty" and "angry" coming from a Republican? Now that's funny. Please re-watch the Republican National Convention - particularly Mitt, Rudy, and Palin's speeches and applause lines regarding Barack Obama and Al Gore's private jet and then lecture me again on petty anger.

  But, as you said yourself, I'm a libertarian.  Once Ron Paul was out of the running I lost interest.  You know what your problem is Ryan?  You still haven't realized that they are ALL a bunch of lying assholes who only bother with you so far as they can manipulate your vote.  Besides that, they could give a shit less.  Or, should I say at least 99.9% of them.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2008, 08:44:50 PM »

Sometimes even candidate's own spouses don't know how radically they want to change the nation:

Quote
On Wednesday night, the CBS anchor asked Senator John McCain’s wife, Cindy, about her views on abortion, and discovered that Mrs. McCain, usually so impenetrably poised and well prepared, had difficulty describing her husband’s position on Roe v. Wade, or her own. (She said he did not want to overturn it, until Ms. Couric assured her that he did oppose Roe v. Wade. Mrs. McCain, looking a bit confused, then said she, too, wanted the legality of abortion to be determined by individual states.)

At the end of the interview, Ms. Couric told her viewers that the campaign had clarified Mrs. McCain’s position: “They told us that, like Laura Bush, Mrs. McCain does not favor overturning Roe v. Wade, which guarantees the legal right to an abortion.”
nytimes.com/2008/09/05/us/politics/05watch.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

So I guess now Cindy McCain understands that her husband's flip-flop on abortion (in order to be president, "Mr. Straightalker" now says he wants Roe v. Wade overturned) is for real. So now she, too, is for making abortions illegal again.
At least for now...
I guess.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2008, 09:12:15 PM »

Why do Republicans think the way that they do? What does Obama say?

The following is slightly out of context, but is a pretty good approximation to Obama's answer to the question, IMHO. I'll supply the context:

Following non-stop ridicule of Obama by Republicans for being a community organizer, CBS News reporter asked Barack Obama today, at a press briefing in central Pennsylvania, "Community organizer -- what was your reaction to that but also how is that relevant experience to the presidency?"

"This is very curious," Obama said. "So this is work I did [20] years ago. They haven't talked about the fact that I was a civil rights lawyer; they haven't talked about the fact that I taught constitutional law; they haven't talked about my work in the state legislature or in the United States Senate. They're talking about the three years of work that I did right out of college as if I'm making the leap from two or three years out of college into the presidency.

"So, look, I would argue that doing work in the community to try to create jobs, to bring people together, to rejuvenate communities that have fallen on hard times, to set up job training programs in areas that have been hard hit when the steel plants closed. That that's relevant only in understanding where I'm coming from, who I believe in, who I'm fighting for and why I'm in this race. And the question I have for them is that why would that kind of work be ridiculous? Who are they fighting for? What are they are advocating for? They think that the lives of those folks who are struggling each and every day, that working with them to try to improve their lives is somehow not relevant to the presidency?

"I think maybe that's the problem -- that's part of why they're out of touch and they don't get it 'cause they haven't spent much time working on behalf of those folks."


(video of the exchange at the link: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_09/014563.php)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 09:14:00 PM by jpn of Seattle » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2008, 12:08:58 AM »

Sometimes even candidate's own spouses don't know how radically they want to change the nation:

Quote
On Wednesday night, the CBS anchor asked Senator John McCain’s wife, Cindy, about her views on abortion, and discovered that Mrs. McCain, usually so impenetrably poised and well prepared, had difficulty describing her husband’s position on Roe v. Wade, or her own. (She said he did not want to overturn it, until Ms. Couric assured her that he did oppose Roe v. Wade. Mrs. McCain, looking a bit confused, then said she, too, wanted the legality of abortion to be determined by individual states.)

At the end of the interview, Ms. Couric told her viewers that the campaign had clarified Mrs. McCain’s position: “They told us that, like Laura Bush, Mrs. McCain does not favor overturning Roe v. Wade, which guarantees the legal right to an abortion.”
nytimes.com/2008/09/05/us/politics/05watch.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

So I guess now Cindy McCain understands that her husband's flip-flop on abortion (in order to be president, "Mr. Straightalker" now says he wants Roe v. Wade overturned) is for real. So now she, too, is for making abortions illegal again.
At least for now...
I guess.

Just to clarify one point - being for overturning Roe v. Wade does not equal wanting to make abortions illegal.  Yes, overturning Roe v Wade would open the door for states to be able to make them illegal, but would not make them universally illegal.  My bet would be that were R v W overturned, you could simply look at any news coverage from the last election and the blue states would allow abortions, the red would not.
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« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2008, 12:56:39 AM »

jpn,
This is just non sense.  Even neocons aren't insane enough to want to destroy a program simply because it is popular.
Not simply because it's popular. They are trying to destroy it because it's a hugely successful, hugely popular big government program. It redistributes money down the food chain. This really upsets them because it totally repudiates their government-can't-ever-be-the-solution-to-anything ideology. So I'd say it's accurate to say that Social Security's popularity is one of the leading reasons they want to destroy it.

I would disagree with your assessment.  The ideology is more the government shouldnot be the solution to everything, not that it should not be the solution to anything.  They clearly love the way it solves military issues. 


You're starting to sound like McCain. McCain said a few months ago that he doesn't want to privatize SS, but people should be able to invest some of their contribution into private accounts--which is privatizing SS. You can twist and turn all you want, but the minute you begin diverting SS contributions from the SS trust fund into private accounts, you are privatizing SS. The diverted contributions are no longer available to fund existing liabilities. They will have to be made up for elsewhere. In former Secretary of the Treasury Paul O'Neil's book, he said that he and Alan Greenspan ran the numbers to see what a reasonable plan of weaning America off of the SS system and into private accounts. They came up with a cost of about one trillion dollars.

well, thanks for the compliment, McCain is a smart and successful fellow, so I appreciate the comparison. 
This difference we have is more one of symantics I think.  When someone talks about privatizing a governmental
body, to me that means having that program administered by a private, non-governmental organization.  I have not
seen any plan which would have the SS system administered by non governmental bodies.   You see as any private
investment accounts as privatization of the system. 


Remember, SS recipients are guaranteed to receive benefits for their lifetime, not just until the amount they contributed over their working life runs out.  When the amount people are being paid overuns the amounts people paid in plus the interest earned, the system will be insolvent.  Simple math.  The question is when this will occur.
I posted an answer to this oft-repeated objection at the bottom of page two of this thread. Perhaps the math has a few more complications that you care to bother with. 

Thanks for the link, it is a good source of information.  It does however not refute my point.  It merely gives more detail.  I said at some point the payouts over run the payin, and the system becomes insolvent.  That will happen according to the CBO in 2019.  For many years, the system will be able to run unchanged (no tax raise or reduction in benefits) while it burns off the surplus trust fund that has been acquired over the years.  The rest of the government will not be so lucky.  It will not only no longer be able to count on the loans it currently receives from SS system, it will have to start paying them back in cash to cover the shortfalls.  Once the the surplus has been exhausted, around 2049 according to the CBO projections, either taxes will have to be raised, or benefits slashed, as it will owe out more than it is taking in to the tune of about 2% of GDP.



Something is going to change in the system.  We do something now, likely it will be less painful.  However, with such a contentious subject as SS, likely we will just wait till 2049 and then slash benefits across the board.  Which will really suck for those retires who will be being kept a bit above the poverty line by their SS checks.   Bush wanted to do something now, and invited all parties to participate in the discussion.  Bickering took over from there and nothing happened.  Clamoring that he just wanted to destroy the system did not help matters, and still doesn't.

Personally, I think Bush's plan is not the correct one as it changes the nature of the system too much and potentially destroys the insurance aspect of it.

No argument here.

I however feel no compunction to lie about his plan in order to make that argument.

Oh, we look at an issue, arrive at different conclusions, present our arguments (my argument includes facts and studies from non-partisan sources, while your argument includes merely your opinions) and that makes me a liar?

It sure is pleasant having these adult discussions with you Gomp. You're really a sweet person.

I am a sweet person, thank you for noticing.  Although, unless I miss my guess, I believe I detect a tad bit of sarcasm. 

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« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2008, 02:24:10 PM »

Quote
There is no question that a huge percentage of Republicans vote Republican based solely on the issue of Abortion, solely on the issue of Gun Rights, solely on the issue of Taxes, etc. This is evidenced by George Bush's relelection win in 2004 which was the direct result of single-issue evangelical voters turning out to the polls to vote solely based on Abortion and/or Gay Marriage. This is not an opinion. This is a fact.

 
No this is not fact, this is your opinion, one which you have supported with your observations, but not evidence or facts.


You are wrong. I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong about this point. It is widely agreed that Evangelical (aka "one issue") voters single-handily won George W. Bush a second term. Major Evangelical leaders, who in an orchestrated effort with the White House, signed up millions of new voters voting solely on the issue of Gay Marriage and Abortion in key battleground states tipped the extremely close 2004 election to Bush. Without these millions of Gay Marriage and Abortion votes, Bush would have lost the election.

There is an ocean of evidence to cite when showing how Evangelicals worked with the White House to turn out millions of people to vote on the single issues of Gay Marriage and Abortion to win Bush a second term. Below is just one I picked since it summarizes this rather complicated one-issue voter drive nicely:


Quote
Evangelicals Say They Led Charge For the GOP

By Alan Cooperman and Thomas B. Edsall
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, November 8, 2004; Page A01

As the presidential race was heating up in June and July, a pair of leaked documents showed that the Bush-Cheney reelection campaign was urging Christian supporters to turn over their church directories and was seeking to identify "friendly congregations" in battleground states.

Those revelations produced a flurry of accusations that the Bush campaign was leading churches to violate laws against partisan activities by tax-exempt organizations, and even some of the White House's closest religious allies said the campaign had gone too far.

But the untold story of the 2004 election, according to national religious leaders and grass-roots activists, is that evangelical Christian groups were often more aggressive and sometimes better organized on the ground than the Bush campaign. The White House struggled to stay abreast of the Christian right and consulted with the movement's leaders in weekly conference calls. But in many respects, Christian activists led the charge that GOP operatives followed and capitalized upon.

This was particularly true of the same-sex marriage issue. One of the most successful tactics of social conservatives -- the ballot referendums against same-sex marriage in 13 states -- bubbled up from below and initially met resistance from White House aides, Christian leaders said.

In dozens of interviews since the election, grass-roots activists in Ohio, Michigan and Florida credited President Bush's chief political adviser, Karl Rove, with setting a clear goal that became a mantra among conservatives: To win, Bush had to draw 4 million more evangelicals to the polls than he did in 2000. But they also described a mobilization of evangelical Protestants and conservative Roman Catholics that took off under its own power.

In battlegrounds such as Ohio, scores of clergy members attended legal sessions explaining how they could talk about the election from the pulpit. Hundreds of churches launched registration drives, thousands of churchgoers registered to vote, and millions of voter guides were distributed by Christian and antiabortion groups.

The rallying cry for many social conservatives was opposition to same-sex marriage. But concern about the Supreme Court, abortion, school prayer and pornography also motivated these "values voters." Same-sex marriage, said Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, was "the hood ornament on the family values wagon that carried the president to a second term."

For several months after the Massachusetts court decision, evangelical leaders lamented the lack of a popular outcry. That changed July 14, when the Senate rejected the federal marriage amendment. Media reports described the vote as "a big election-year defeat" for the White House. It was, in fact, an election-year bonanza.

Backers of the amendment clogged the Senate switchboard with calls. Perhaps most important, social conservatives shifted their focus to amending state constitutions. They launched petition drives to put amendments banning same-sex marriage to a popular vote, and those drives resulted in grass-roots organizations and voter lists that later fed the Bush campaign.

Ultimately, 13 states approved marriage amendments this year, including 11 on Nov. 2.

Some Democrats suspected that the ballot initiatives were engineered by Rove and the GOP, but religious activists say otherwise. In Michigan, state Sen. Alan Cropsey (R) introduced a bill to ban same-sex marriage in October 2003 and assumed it would have the support of his party. Instead, the Roman Catholic Church in Michigan became the amendment's main booster, spending nearly $1 million to secure its passage.

Charles W. Colson, founder of Prison Fellowship Ministries, recalled a meeting early this year when Christian leaders warned White House aides that the marriage issue was likely to appear on state ballots and be a big factor in the presidential election.

The Enlistment of Religious Leaders:

According to religious leaders, the conference calls with White House officials started early in the Bush administration and became a weekly ritual as the campaign heated up. Usually, the participants were Rove or Tim Goeglein, head of the White House Office of Public Liaison. Later, Bush campaign chairman Ken Mehlman and Ralph Reed, former executive director of the Christian Coalition and the campaign's southeast regional coordinator, were often on the line.

The religious leaders varied, but frequent participants included the Rev. Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention, psychologist James C. Dobson or others from the Colorado-based Focus on the Family, and Colson.

The Bush campaign enlisted thousands of religious "team leaders" in its canvassing efforts. According to activists in battleground states, however, Christian groups were often out ahead of the campaign.

Jay Sekulow, chief counsel of the conservative American Center for Law and Justice, advised in mailings to 45,000 churches that their clergy should avoid endorsing a candidate by name from the pulpit. Other than that, "we told them they were absolutely free and should encourage their people to vote their convictions," he said.

Such entreaties appear to have worked. Sekulow said he believes that thousands of clergy members gave sermons about the election, and that many went further than they ever had before. The Rev. Rick Warren, author of the best-selling "The Purpose Driven Life" and one of the most influential ministers in the country, sent a letter to 136,000 fellow pastors urging them to compare the candidates' positions on five "non-negotiable" issues: abortion, stem cell research, same-sex marriage, human cloning and euthanasia.

Dobson, a powerful figure among evangelicals, endorsed Bush -- though he said he was doing so as an individual, not as chairman of Focus on the Family, whose programs are heard on 7,000 radio stations worldwide. "This year the issues were so profound that I felt I simply could not sit it out," Dobson said last week.

Far from sitting it out, Dobson created a separate nonprofit, Focus on the Family Action, which organized six stadium-size rallies to urge Christians in battleground states to "vote their values."

Bush's conservative Christian base was essential to his victory. According to surveys of voters leaving the polls, Bush won 79 percent of the 26.5 million evangelical votes and 52 percent of the 31 million Catholic votes. Turnout soared in conservative areas such as Ohio's Warren County, where Bush picked up 18,000 more votes than in 2000, and local activists said churches were the reason.

Over the summer, the Rev. Bruce Moore, pastor of Warren County's Clearcreek Christian Assembly, gave two sermons explaining a Christian's responsibility to vote. Then he passed out voter registration cards. His 400 congregants circulated them among like-minded friends, registering hundreds more voters.

"On this election, because of the issues before the state of Ohio and the nation, they were passionate," Moore said. "It was all hands on deck. I have never seen a rush for voter registration cards in my life as a minister."

Some Christian leaders perceived not only a threat to biblical morality, but also a winning political issue. Same-sex marriage "is different from abortion," said the Rev. Ronnie Floyd, pastor of First Baptist Church of Springdale, Ark. "It touches every segment of society, schools, the media, television, government, churches. No one is left out."



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I am a Republican, I am pro-choice.  My immediate family are all Republicans, and are all pro-choice and are atheists.
 

I don't doubt that for a second. But the fact remains, pro-choice atheistic Republicans are BY FAR the exception and not the rule. You, and your family, are the exception. 

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If the Republican party were run by the single minded, single issue evangelicals you claim are its majority, Hucabee or Romney would be the nominee.

And if Republican Voters got to pick the Republican candidate for president, either Huckabee or Romney WOULD be the nominee. Or have you already forgotten the tremendous backlash within the Republican Party over the selection of McCain as their party's candidate?

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Is any of what I have said really evidence of the true nature of the Republican mindset?  In my opinion, No, what I have provided here are my experiences and opinions and I would not consider them to rise to the status of true evidence.  They are however at least as compelling as arguments as what you have brought to the table.

The evidence of the true Republican mindset (or at least the mindset of the majority of Republicans) can be determined by what Republican leaders say and do when trying to appeal to their party. That seems common sense to me. If you want to know what motivates a Republican (or again, at least what motivates the majority of Republicans), you needn't look any further than the speeches given at the Republican National Convention - which by any account - was an overwhelming success and by all accounts overwhelmingly successful in getting Republicans excited about voting for McCain/Palin this November.

And those speeches mirrored almost exactly the indentical formula that got Republicans excited about voting for Bush in 2000 & 2004. If you want to know where the heart of the Republican Party lies just look at what fires them up - look at 2000, 2004, and now 2008. That's how you tell the mindset of the average Republican.


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I also believe you are so mired in your partisan hatred for the Republican party that you sometimes allow emotionality to get the better of you when you are arguing.  This is also something that mature, intelligent adults do from time to time and I certainly know that I am not immune from it, so I will certainly not try to imply that any of your argumentation was childish.

I will not dispute the fact that I hate the Republican Party (as it exists today) and all that it has done to diminish the country that I love. They hate Liberals. They hate the mainstream media. They hate colleges and higher education which they see as Elitist. They hate atheists. They hate Muslims and Muslim extremists. They hate Science and Scientists which they see as Atheists. They hate homosexuals. They hate abortionists. They hate the East Coast. They hate San Fransisco. They hate poor people on government assistance. They hate Hollywood and Hollywood celebrities. They hate enviromentalists. They hate feminists. They hate lesbians. They hate illegal immigrants. They hate the Supreme Court.

Fear. Hate. Anger. That is the Republican Party. And from watching the RNC, no one person can deny anger and hate fuel the Republican Party. Go back and watch the convention. Compare the applause lines from Palin's attacks on Obama with the applause lines from McCain's statements to reach across the aisle. You could practically hear a pin drop when McCain was stating his desire to get things done through bipartisanship. Republicans don't want to work with Democrats - they want to destroy them. And it has deeply divided this country, made our country a joke on the world stage, and made every American worse for allowing them to control this country the last several years.
     

There is no denying our country is much, much, much worse off now than it was in 2000. No question. On every major front, this country is much worse off. And if we continue to allow Republicans to run the country, in another 8 years we may have nothing left for a Democrat OR a Republican to "change". So yes, for that, I hate the current Republican Party and everything it currently stands for.
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