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And Justice For All
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« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2008, 07:25:44 AM » |
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This shouldn't be apart of politics anymore than the stupid Jeremiah Wright crap. Palin isn't her dumb daughter just as much as Obama is not his dumb pastor. But yes this will probably matter to people. Never under estimate the stupidity of Americans and why they vote or don't for people.
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Alright Clanton, you called down the thunder well now you got it! The cowboys are finished, you understand me? I see a red sash I kill a man wearing it. So run you Kurr. You tell em Im coming and hells coming with me you hear. Hells coming with me!
-Wyatt Earp
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Patton
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« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2008, 08:20:45 AM » |
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Striving for and maintaining traditional values does not conflict with the fact humans are imperfect.
Arguing against it is akin to:
People speed, so we shouldn't have laws on speeding.
People drive drunk, so we shouldn't have laws on driving drunk.
People have sex, so we shouldn't have laws on prostitution and molestation.
Etc, etc, etc.
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2008, 08:47:09 AM » |
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No Patton. The comparrisons are not remotely similar, imo, especially if we're talking about administering legislation about any given issue. Arguing against it is akin to:
People speed, so we shouldn't have laws on speeding.
People drive drunk, so we shouldn't have laws on driving drunk.
People have sex, so we shouldn't have laws on prostitution and molestation.
Except everything you mention affects anothers imminent safety, so no, that's not what I'm saying, it's not even close. How is gay marriage remotely close to the social effect of driving drunk? It isn't. Nor is it close to speeding or molestation. All of those things involve protecting innocents from being hurt by another’s choices. We, or at least I, am talking about choices that are personal and do not make physical victims of others. An unwed mother does not equal 1000 deaths on the highway this month. A gay guy getting freaky in a bath house does not equal highway deaths either. So gay marriage is not like drunk driving. Not even close. Being gay and accepting it as a non-choice is not like speeding in your car. Not even close. Having a child out of wedlock is not remotely like molestation. Are we saying that Palin's daughter has affected her society like a drunk driver would? No sorry but closer to the truth "Family Values" attempts to legislate what kind of sex people can have, not protecting potential victims of a sexual behaviour. Ahk |
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« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 09:10:19 AM by Ahkenaten »
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Patton
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« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2008, 09:29:04 AM » |
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Differences in morality and the perceived harms of immorality are opinions held by those beholden to them...they are unique an differ the way humans themselves are unique and different....brow beating someone with different morals and opinions thereof accomplishes nothing other than possibly making yourself feel better and a little more self-rightous.
I used the word "akin" on purpose.... because like most things in life, comparisons can rarely, if ever, be accomplished with complete exactness....so analogies are used to convey the idea...of course...if the idea is lost in translation or altogether ignored...then the attack on the specific differences of said analogy is made upon the example.
A common theme here.
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Retro Fit
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« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2008, 11:15:57 AM » |
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Differences in morality and the perceived harms of immorality are opinions held by those beholden to them...they are unique an differ the way humans themselves are unique and different....brow beating someone with different morals and opinions thereof accomplishes nothing other than possibly making yourself feel better and a little more self-rightous.
I used the word "akin" on purpose.... because like most things in life, comparisons can rarely, if ever, be accomplished with complete exactness....so analogies are used to convey the idea...of course...if the idea is lost in translation or altogether ignored...then the attack on the specific differences of said analogy is made upon the example. There may be hope for you after all, patton |
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2008, 11:40:56 AM » |
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Differences in morality and the perceived harms of immorality are opinions held by those beholden to them...they are unique an differ the way humans themselves are unique and different....brow beating someone with different morals and opinions thereof accomplishes nothing other than possibly making yourself feel better and a little more self-rightous.
I used the word "akin" on purpose.... because like most things in life, comparisons can rarely, if ever, be accomplished with complete exactness....so analogies are used to convey the idea...of course...if the idea is lost in translation or altogether ignored...then the attack on the specific differences of said analogy is made upon the example. Okay your point is understood. But after all I did say... Can we agree this is subject matter better dealt with by individuals and not political agenda or, in all but extreme cases, laws?
So I do recognize one individuals rights end where anothers begins. If I thought divorce was breaking someones spine I'd be against it. My point (overall and on this thread originally) is that if your* party is the party that is promoting 'family values', (which is just a term to cover a whole range of potential legislation or making 'special' rules for certain people), then your party is going to be the party that is the one 'casting stones from a glass house', not the other one. This also means that if your party is the party promoting 'family values' then it's always going to be bigger news every time any of you get divorced, have a pregnant unwed teenager, get 'caught' being a homosexual, etc. I'm sorry but I can understand the other sides gloating in this case because now it's 'you' (the reps) who gets to know what it feels like when other people are making your harmless personal details the issue of a moral spotlight. In fact it was the family values crowd that put that spotlight there in the first place. No? Ahk *Rhetorical. 'You' meaning anyone generally strongly aligned with the Republicans |
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« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 11:45:25 AM by Ahkenaten »
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machioveli
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« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2008, 12:25:22 PM » |
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I do not think Republicans like myself or anyone are blaming the mother or looks down on the daughter for her pregnancy. I find it disturbing that teens continue to get pregnant but I don't see them as criminals or worst than any one. I am not Christian and I don't believe in any religion but I think there are such things as morals. Now putting aside this girls pregnancy and saying this doesn't belong in politics, come on, you had to know this subject was going to surface. Hell we live in a place where we track idiots like Paris Hilton, and Brittney Spears and call that news. I am upset at McCains poor decisions in the last weeks. We can sit here and talk about what does or does not belong in politics all day, but truth is this will matter when it comes to the election in Nov. I am just wondering why McCain is trying so hard to throw it all away. Of course the democrats are not going to comment on it because we are burning down our own house.
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Patton
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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2008, 01:42:52 PM » |
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This also means that if your party is the party promoting 'family values' then it's always going to be bigger news every time any of you get divorced, have a pregnant unwed teenager, get 'caught' being a homosexual, etc. Your absolutely right....the saying "a few bad apples spoils the whole bowl" is appropriate. Everytime a man stumbles...I am reminded of how imperfect we all are....whenever it is someone who espouses or is to represent my world view...it is like an added twist to the knife...the Pastor in Denver (the name escapes me)...Mark Foley...and the Senator playing footsy in the airport(again the name escapes me) Glass houses are not the sole property of either party. |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Reaganite
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2008, 02:34:05 PM » |
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 Conservatives believe in raising babies and killing taxes and Liberals well... ya know... they think the opposite I guess they could puncture the babies scull and suck out its brains and Then cut the baby apart and pull it out piece by piece as to not punish their daughter with a baby for making a mistake as Obama said he would do for his child. |
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You get what you pay for America... Welcome to the Obamanation.....
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2008, 02:40:43 PM » |
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Oh yeah. Are you telling us there aren't any Republicans who had abortions? How would we know? Maybe she's had 6 already and just lied about it. That would seem typical sex-in-a-mens-room lying to me.
Maybe she's just glad to be living in a country that gives her the choice and doesn't force her to have the child and chastise her at the same time for having it out of wedlock by narrowing her choices even more.
You don't want a police state unless it's for woman or people 'not like you' (gays, single parents who 'bring down the state', etc). Then all of a sudden it's legislation time. Feel free to make ushy-gushy baby killing noises though. Very compelling. "You kill babies".
Big talk from a someone who'd probably have an abortion if he was pregnant in a minute flat, regardless of what he thought.
Ahk
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« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 02:45:38 PM by Ahkenaten »
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illy
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illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing
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« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2008, 04:54:48 PM » |
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*Fun with Spaces* Conservatives believe in raising babies and killing taxes and Liberals* *well... ya know... they think the opposite* It's only natural to want to kill those who disagree with you. I guess they could puncture the babies scull and suck out its brains and Then cut the baby apart and pull it out piece by piece... Alright bud, I've heard enough of this. Now turn off the computer, and Saw XXIV, and go get some fresh air. |
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening
Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him
Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him
Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it -
Rugged Man - Give it Up
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freethinker
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« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2008, 06:07:06 PM » |
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Enough with who's pregnant... that is a family matter not a political one... I move we change the direction of this thread to talk about Palins Troopergate investigation. This speaks to executive power abuse ...this speaks to using executive power to fire public officials who don't agree with the executive. This sounds remarkably similar to another executive ...does it not? I would like to know how "troopergate Palin" feels about the firing of all those US attorneys by the Bush administration on partisan grounds and how legal she believes that is ...Doesn't anyone else see the similarities and the republicon mindset here? I don't care if she has twenty daughters and they all have bastard triplets that would be unlikely to effect the way she governs. But abusing executive powers by firing public officials who do their job but not the executives bidding tells VOLUMES about how she will abuse the powers of the office. If she does this in Alaska what will she be like in Washington?? I am glad to hear the investigations findings should be out in October ( before the election) Lets see if by some amazing coincidence the investigations findings are delayed a little ...oh say like December ...wouldn't that be convenient?? Palin's Troopergate Posted: Saturday, August 30, 2008 11:22 AM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: 2008, McCain
The Washington Post reports, “Republican presidential candidate John McCain's running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, is an ethics reformer under an ethics investigation that is plowing through private domestic matters. Palin is under investigation to determine whether she pressured and then fired the state police chief in July because he refused to dismiss her former brother-in-law. At the time, the governor's younger sister was involved in a bitter divorce and child custody dispute with the man, a state trooper. A bipartisan committee of the state legislature voted unanimously to hire a retired prosecutor to investigate. His report is due in October.”
More: “Gov. Palin's husband, Todd Palin, met with Monegan [the fired state police chief] in January 2007, a month after his wife took office, to say that the trooper was unfit for the force. Monegan also said the governor sent him e-mails, but Monegan declined to disclose them, saying he planned to give them to the independent prosecutor. Palin initially denied that she or anyone in her administration had ever pressured Monegan to fire Wooten. She said she had raised the matter with Monegan just once, relaying the allegation that Wooten made a death threat against her father. But this summer, Palin acknowledged that a half-dozen members of her administration had made more than two dozen calls on the matter to various state officials
And: “Monegan, 57, a former chief of the Anchorage Police Department, said in an interview Friday that during his 19 months on the job the governor repeatedly mentioned Wooten but ‘never directly asked me to fire him.’ Monegan said Todd Palin told him that Wooten ‘shouldn't be a trooper.’ ‘I've tried to explain to him,’ Monegan said, ‘You can't head-hunt like this. What you need to do is back off, because if the trooper does make a mistake, and it is a terminable offense, it can look like political interference. I think he's emotionally committed in trying to see that his former brother-in-law is punished.’” http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/30/1310109.aspx I also want to know if in addition to McShames knowing about Palin's daughter's reproductive condition he also knew about this abuse of executive power Palin is being investigated for . If he did... doesn't THAT tell volumes about McCain as well??? If he didn't doesn't THAT tell even more?? |
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« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 06:13:31 PM by freethinker »
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2008, 06:21:47 PM » |
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Troopergate, an unbelievably thin resume, and far-right policy positions aren't the only issues to raise regarding Palin. Now there's something new. Her hubby, it turns out, has made some interesting political choices: "This afternoon, the director of Division of Elections in Alaska, Gail Fenumiai, told TPMmuckraker that Todd Palin registered in October 1995 to the Alaska Independence Party, a radical group that advocates for Alaskan secession from the United States." (my emphasis) --source: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/todd_palin_was_registered_memb.phpThis is a breaking story. At first it was reported that Palin herself was a member, now it appears that "only" her husband was. He ended his membership, coincidentally(?), in the summer that Palin ran for elected office for the first time. Here are some more related details: The founder of the Alaska Independence Party -- a group that has been courted over the years by Sarah Palin, and one her husband was a member of for roughly seven years -- once professed his "hatred for the American government" and cursed the American flag as a "damn flag."
Palin has courted the group over the years.
Three years after the controversial interview, in 1994, Palin attended the group's annual convention, according to witnesses who spoke to ABC News' Jake Tapper. The McCain campaign is disputing her presence there, but Tapper found two people to attest to it.
The McCain campaign today produced Palin's voting registration records, and said they proved she was never a member of the party.
But she has repeatedly reached out to the group. The McCain campaign has confirmed she visited the group's 2000 convention, and she addressed its convention this year, as an incumbent governor whose oath of office includes upholding the Constitution of the United States. source: http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/aip_founder_professed_hatred_f.phpSounds to me like she is perilously close to the looney-fringe right wing nut crowd that peoples a large part of the Republican Party. I notice that she hasn't been available to the press since her nomination. Two nearly identical speeches, and that's it. I wonder why? Desperate damage control? Is the GOP VP nominee going to be held incommunicado? Dan Quayle is looking better and better and better. Judgment. What does this say about McCain's judgment? Nothing good. |
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« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 06:29:56 PM by jpn of Seattle »
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What you got is everything-and I mean everything—run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis. --John DiIulio, former White House official
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Patton
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« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2008, 05:27:43 AM » |
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Rezko, Ayers, Wright, smoker, $740 million in earmarks, an unbelievably thin resume, and far-left policy positions aren't the only issues to raise regarding Obama........but go ahead and keep nipping at the BOTTOM of the ticket......LOL
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2008, 05:45:26 AM » |
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The Wall Street Journal
GOP Tightens Image Control As Palin Prepares for Debut
By LAURA MECKLER, MONICA LANGLEY and ELIZABETH HOLMES
September 3, 2008; Page A1
The McCain campaign scrambled to take control of the public debate over vice-presidential pick Sarah Palin, canceling her public appearances and teaming her with high-powered Republican operatives as she prepared for a speech Wednesday night that will be her first, and perhaps most important, chance to define herself to the American public.
....In Minnesota she has stayed out of the public eye, a contrast with Democratic vice-presidential pick Sen. Joe Biden, who milled about the convention in Denver last week. Gov. Palin refused media interviews and canceled plans to appear at the Republican National Coalition for Life Tuesday.
....In Alaska, the McCain campaign has tried to control the flow of information as liberal bloggers and the media mine her past. A team of public-relations aides has settled into the state and asked Gov. Palin's friends and family to avoid speaking to the media. Yes, Palin was a brilliant choice by McCain, demonstrating his sound judgment and great wisdom...um...but no one can talk to her. At least not until the vetting-by-the-newmedia-because-the-McCain-campaign-is-too-incompetent-to-do-it is complete. |
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What you got is everything-and I mean everything—run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis. --John DiIulio, former White House official
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