IAP Political Forum
November 23, 2008, 12:48:04 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Default theme has been changed, and everyone reset due to some problems with posts disappearing after submitting.
 
   Home   Blog Forum   Help Search Chat Login Register  
Digg This!
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What is the Essense of Being Human?  (Read 593 times)
IamMe
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +39/-126
Posts: 1,271



View Profile
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2007, 01:35:27 PM »

"I think therefore I am."
-- Descarte

Can't exist if we can't think.

You have misunderstood Descartes. Thinking is not required for existing. Rocks don't think, water doesn't think etc.

I think therefore I am is a way of proving one's own existence. It's not a necessity for existence.

Sorry.  What I meant in terms of "existence" was being aware that we "exist."  And in some cases many would argue that Descartes did mean that if something does not think, like a rock, it does not exist.  I am more in line with that kind of thinking.

But yeah, it wasn't my intention to say that.  It was more tune of defining self-awareness.

You and Descartes seem to have redefined existence as self-awareness.
Logged

\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell

If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
Gojira
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-101
Posts: 1,601


Blasphemy!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2007, 01:42:22 PM »

"I think therefore I am."
-- Descarte

Can't exist if we can't think.

You have misunderstood Descartes. Thinking is not required for existing. Rocks don't think, water doesn't think etc.

I think therefore I am is a way of proving one's own existence. It's not a necessity for existence.

Sorry.  What I meant in terms of "existence" was being aware that we "exist."  And in some cases many would argue that Descartes did mean that if something does not think, like a rock, it does not exist.  I am more in line with that kind of thinking.

But yeah, it wasn't my intention to say that.  It was more tune of defining self-awareness.

You and Descartes seem to have redefined existence as self-awareness.

No. Just me. That is what Callum asked for right? The definition of self-awareness?  I just used Descartes quote as an example.  I wasn't using Cartesian dualism to support my argument if that is what you were presuming.
Logged

Our democracy has created an environment of indecision at times of impending crisis. 

If life is easy for you, then you aint livin.
Callum
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +48/-164
Posts: 438


View Profile
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2007, 01:57:59 PM »


No. Just me. That is what Callum asked for right? The definition of self-awareness?  I just used Descartes quote as an example.  I wasn't using Cartesian dualism to support my argument if that is what you were presuming.

I asked for a definition of self-awareness, and for you to show how language was what gave us this awareness. I also said you needed to put a lot of work into doing that - meaning that it is a difficult task.

Your responses so far have only shown the latter to be right   Grin

You may well be right that the cat doesn't know that he's a cat.  He does appear to  know that he is himself. I could hazard a conjecture that all 'higher' animals have a sense of their individual existence.  So where does self-awareness exceed that?
Logged
Gojira
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-101
Posts: 1,601


Blasphemy!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2007, 02:18:04 PM »

You may well be right that the cat doesn't know that he's a cat.  He does appear to  know that he is himself.

I guess this is where our ideas split.  I don't think that self-awareness is that hard to define especially given our very learned positions.  Let my try and compare and contrast our ideas.

Self-awareness includes the presumption that we are individuals.  We can't be individuals without some sort of "Self" or "Consciousness" and this is something I say that a cat can not have for the following reason.  For us to have this higher manifold of awareness requires that we understand just exactly what this awareness is.  And the only way we can put these feelings of self-realization is to communicate with ourselves as well as others.  The tool for this communication is language and is the requirement for any human to become "self-aware."  So when we are born, we don't know that we are babies yet until we begin to learn words, phrases and ideas and then have the cognitive ability to understand that when we look in a mirror we are actually looking at our "self." 

I am going to switch our animal of focus to dogs. For a dog to look in the mirror, (and this is where we may disagree) is that it does not have the ability to understand that it is aware of its own self.  In fact you find this sometimes funny when dogs look into mirrors they bark at themselves even though what they are perceiving is understood as another dog.  And to that fact, they may even learn that they themselves are being reflected in the mirror however, they can't comprehend that they are actually a living being.  Something separate of this world.  The only thing that they can distinguish between is by a learning behavior that I can not deny many animals have.

But when trying to put these memories into context, only humans have the ability to place meaning behind it, in which, because of language, we communicate to others and ourselves that we are an actual person, an individual, that is "self-aware."  So when we look in the mirror we are not barking at it, but communicating with ourselves to try and figure out what it means...



Logged

Our democracy has created an environment of indecision at times of impending crisis. 

If life is easy for you, then you aint livin.
Callum
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +48/-164
Posts: 438


View Profile
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2007, 02:13:55 AM »

You may well be right that the cat doesn't know that he's a cat.  He does appear to  know that he is himself.

I guess this is where our ideas split.  I don't think that self-awareness is that hard to define especially given our very learned positions.  Let my try and compare and contrast our ideas.

OK, thanks...

Quote
Self-awareness includes the presumption that we are individuals.  We can't be individuals without some sort of "Self" or "Consciousness" and this is something I say that a cat can not have for the following reason.  For us to have this higher manifold of awareness requires that we understand just exactly what this awareness is.

You now are shifting into a discussion of what it is to be an individual.  Here you are merging together 'self' and 'consciousness'.  They are VERY distinct concepts.  Every individuated thing may be seen to have a 'self'.  The cat certainly has one - he ministers to it, feeds it, preserves it...  So lets look at 'consciousness', as you start to do.  You seem to be saying that we can only have consciousness if we can understand what consciousness is.  There are three immediate responses.  Firstly, it appears wrong.  Higher animals are obviously conscious (see later).  Secondly, the activity of understanding is a feature of consciousness, which means you are saying that to be conscious we must be conscious.  Thirdly, if this is so (that we must understand consciousness to have it) then humanity is not conscious, since there are currently no robust theories of just what it is. NObody is widely accepted as understanding what consciousness is.

Quote
  And the only way we can put these feelings of self-realization is to communicate with ourselves as well as others.  The tool for this communication is language and is the requirement for any human to become "self-aware." 

Again we have some slipping and sliding around with terminology.  Where did self-realisation come from, how is it related to self-awareness?  We also seem to be schizophrenic in that we communicate with ourselves (communication implies utterer and audience - two separate entities).  So far the argument seems to be that:

- we need to be aware that we are aware in order to be aware
- we must verbalise that we are aware of being aware in order to be aware that we are aware
- we have to have language to do this
- so language produces awareness QED.

I think the premises are all highly suspect.

Quote
So when we are born, we don't know that we are babies yet until we begin to learn words, phrases and ideas and then have the cognitive ability to understand that when we look in a mirror we are actually looking at our "self." 

I am going to switch our animal of focus to dogs. For a dog to look in the mirror, (and this is where we may disagree) is that it does not have the ability to understand that it is aware of its own self.  In fact you find this sometimes funny when dogs look into mirrors they bark at themselves even though what they are perceiving is understood as another dog.  And to that fact, they may even learn that they themselves are being reflected in the mirror however, they can't comprehend that they are actually a living being.  Something separate of this world.  The only thing that they can distinguish between is by a learning behavior that I can not deny many animals have. 

I don't think that babies need to learn to speak to learn as they develop that they are individuals. 'Wolf children' seem to do that.  In some primitive cultures mirrors have been unknown, the concept of a mirror lacking from the culture.  Yet their introduction - with no language support - has had the expected results of people learning how they function.  Chimpanzees appear to be able to perform the same trick of recognising themselves in mirrors. The concept of self seems to be prior to language.

You are on thin ice by assuming that dogs do not have an awareness of themselves as living creatures.  The empirical grounds are by no means certain and, in the proper logical sense of the phrase, you are begging the question (assuming what is to be proven as part of the argument).  (As an aside, does the phrase "Something separate of this world" mean an individual thing separate FROM everything else in the world, or are you trying to imply that minds are something 'outside' this world?)

Quote
But when trying to put these memories into context, only humans have the ability to place meaning behind it, in which, because of language, we communicate to others and ourselves that we are an actual person, an individual, that is "self-aware."  So when we look in the mirror we are not barking at it, but communicating with ourselves to try and figure out what it means...

Only humans have a language-facility developed to their high standard of complexity - yep.  Language is a medium for transferring information. ANY species that communicates amongst its members is transferring information - i.e. functionally using a language.  Cetaceans have a (lesser developed) language-fascility, we think.  Are they therefore to be considered more or less self-aware?  Chimps certainly communicate their individual desires, useful information, they plan and organise.  Self-aware just a little less?  Ant colonies are immensely complex in their organisation and projects...

Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.4 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC
Joomla Bridge by JoomlaHacks.com
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.165 seconds with 27 queries.