B, what the hell are you claiming? That if there are historic claims of someone, then we should believe them?

Honestly, you are like a bull in a china shop the way you argue your Straw Men.

Or, are you saying that the evidence for Jesus is convincing because he was such a minor figure?

Really, instead of arguing agianst what you think I claim, why don't you propose something?

Or, is that not your chess game? You just wipe the board clear, set up the pieces as you wish, and play with yourself?

Huh? What implications? THat I have to accept that a Jesus existed, or God in Man Skin walked the Earth?

I tend to believe that a Jesus existed, as I do a Julius Ceasar. I could be wrong about both, but I don't think so.

What I am trying to figure out is why you think you have such a powerful argument?

I really think you think I deny that a Jesus existed. I am convinced of the evidence that there was a figure that inspired people to make him an exalted figure.

There were many people like that - John the Baptist, for one. And many outside Xinaity.


So, what was your point, B?   Or, are you done? Spent?





btw, I wonder if you would care to exend the analogy?  THe stories of Julius were changed, altered and mythologized. Many of his quotes can't be directly attributed to him, or verified. His divinity is in question.

I imagine your line of reasoning will lead you to the same conclusion with Jesus.

B, please, try to lay out your argument so I can see what it is you are trying to say.

Again, even without the contemporary testimony from various authors, even enemies, that the Jesus story suffers from, I still am willing to accept that Jesus existed.  THat is not to say, though, that the implication is the same, or the evidence equal.

Certainly, someone of your erudition should know this!

Just because I accept these people existed doesn't mean I have to accept every claim made of them.

Do you?

If you can't know whether the information is accurate, why do you leap to a conclusion?  Because some martyrs died and it was reported (by the church) that they died without recanting?

You would think that after 9/11 most people would understand the mind of a religious zealot, and their ability to warp reality in their own minds.


btw, it's "testimony of ANONYMOUS witnesses is all we have". And there is no original document. THe earliest document is many generations later, and many changes have been PROVEN to have happened.

For all the alleged eviednce you have, there is mounds evidence against.  Not to mention the wild claim of resurrection, virgin birth, etc.  Even by historic standards, the life of Jesus is poorly accounted for.

You claim miracles happen. THat babies can have elephany heads grafted onto them and live, that men can rise from death and walk on water.

That negates any induction you might use. For example, you can't look at a watch on a beach and assume it was designed, since it is just as likely that it popped into existence by a Magic Man, or that the perception of the beach is clouded by your Gods Will to only see the watch.

All things are possible in your Cartoon World. You have admitted as much when you allow for the virgin birth, resurrection, Flood, Jonah and the whale, ID, etc.

These things are miracles because they destroy induction. They do not follow given what we observe from the universe.

The earliest manuscripts are copies of copies of copies and not eyewitness testimonies. Thats why they are so wildly different. They are anonymous.

For you to claim otherwise is false and misleading.

There were many traditions in Xianity. Some believed there were 2 gods, some had 365 gods - all called themselves Xian and based it on gospels from the "eyewitnesses". There was no NT until 2-300 years after your convicted criminal was executed.

What physical evidence? Supernatural evidence? Are you going to use your "Inductive" reasoning?

The FACT is that there were hundreds of documents written about Jesus and most of them don't tell the same story. They picked four gospels because there were four corners of the Earth. They rejected other because of their presuppositions, because of their bias towards one story or another.

If you read Mark, it is a very different Jesus than Luke or Matthew even though they were copying from MArk. Why? Because they were like Dan Brown, they wanted to tell their own story about the mythical events of Jesus. (That is, Jesus may have existed, but they made their own stories about him - just like many figures in history, or all god figures in mythology).

Consider Mark. Jesus was scared and silent on the way to Golgotha, when he died he cried and wailed about god forsaking him. the original gospel ends with an empty tomb and the women running away - never saying anything to anyone.

it just ends.  Jesus dead, no body in the tomb.

The other gospel writers, or scribes, added the sightings afterwards. (Paul simply saw a "vision" (a bright light))

Luke and Matthew embellish the text and scribes add more to the tale.

It's all in the evidence.

Maybe Satan wrote it to decieve me?

OK, here is the first installment of points from the book.

Chapters:
The Beginnings of Xian Scripture
The Copyists of the Early Xian Writings
Texts of the New Testament (Editions, Manuscripts and Differences)
The Quest for origins (Methods and Discoveries)
Originals that Matter
Theologically Motivated Alterations of the Text
Conclusion: Changing Scripture (Scribes, Authors and Readers).

In a way, religion hasn't changed at all. We are still a polytheistic society, just like it was in the days of Early Xinanity. Though rare, it was, however, not uncommon to come across monotheistic religions, in which the religious person rejected other gods of other peoples beliefs. The Jewish religion was one such religion. They not only believed they were specially chosen by this god they created, but believed that other people were godless and not in favor of their god. You were either the Chosen and the Damned.

There was only one Temple in Judaism. While you could pray to god from any location there was a "Corporate Headquarters" in Jerusalem. The sattelite offices were known as synagogues.

Almost unique to Judaism was that they wrote down their social laws and stories together in their books, whereas other religions primarily kept the tradition orally (though some did write down their philosophies, histories, etc., there were few other religions that wrote them down as part of the religious tradition.)

Judaism was rare in that it tried to codify religious thinking based on the actions of forefathers. They tried to create an orthodoxed view of religious - "this is the right way to think of, pray to, worship god and act to find favor from God".  (Orthodox = "right doctrine")

Primarily, they relied on the Torah ("law, guidance") which was written as if Moses wrote it and was inspired by God. It consists of the Pentateuch, ("five scrolls"): Genesis. Exodus., Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

There were other important books for the Jews, but these are the ones that are most important for the backdrop of Xianity, since Jesus was a Rabbi, he would have carried on the "bookish" tradition of Judaism.

As you can see, the basis of Xianity is rooted in the dogmatic claims of one small aspect of Judaism. The creation story, the whole concept of one god (though, as we see later, many early Xian writings added gods), etc.

Xinaity began as a religion of the book, of the Jewish texts. It started with the presupposition that the Jewish religion was the only correct one - and then they proceeded to find fault with it. oh, the irony...

---------------

Paul: He is the guy who really started it all.  He never met Jesus, but felt he had in visions. The earliest and best writings of Xianity are from the lettters of Paul.  He was a well-read Jew who went around to urban centers trying to convince people to his interpretation of the texts of the Torah that supported the view that "the Jewish God is the only one to be worshipped,that Jesus is his Son, who had dies for the sins of the world and would return for judgement".

After Paul had convinced a few people he would move on, thus establishing a "church".  But, as he would move to a new city he would hear of problems in the churches. They would have a problem with interpretation, or they would start to create their own interpretation, or other people would try to convince them of different teachings.  Paul would have to write lettrs back to those churches to tell them how they should think.  Thirteen of these are included in the NT.

The first letter that we know of (Thessalonians) is dated about 49 C.E. - 20 years after Jesus's death, and some 20 years before any account of Jesus' life, attesting to the idea that the teaching of Jesus were circulating but that Paul was the most successful in spreading his version.  Some other letters by other Xian teachers are added in the NT.

As we can see, the Jewish tradition of having authority figures dictating orthodoxy is part of Xianity already - or rather, Xianity is simply an extension of Judaism and the authoritarian model. (Whereas other religions were based on personal philosophies - which, as we see later, Xianity becomes. Another irony.).

It is suspected that many of Paul's letters were written by his later followers since, as expected, people would listen to writings that claimed to be of an established authority figure before some guy who claimed to be a friend of the uncle of a guy who knew Paul.

Ehrman stresses that Xianity relies on the written word; the writing of these letters explaing the finer points of orthodoxy and this leads to his larger point of the book - that editting the text was important to refine the message (if you were interested in aligning the text more ot your liking) or that changes in the text undermine the original orthodoxy and change forever Xianity.

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Early Gospels
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Obviously, Xians were most interested in the life and times of Jesus, so gospels (accounts of Jesus's life) were written.  Many were written. Aside from the four that were votrd into the NT, there were gospels written by jesus's brother (yes, that's right, Jesus's brother didn't get his account of his own brother's life into the Bible), Philip (a disciple) and Mary Magdalene (Jesus's girlfriend).

The earliest gospels are lost. We know they existed because other gospels refer to them (Luke refers to many predecessors).  One original is probably the Q document - a bunch of sayings of Jesus that was probably in circulation at the time, but for some reason did not survive.

The writers of Matthew and Luke probably had a copy, as well as a copy of Mark.


As we see, Paul interpreted Jesus's life in light of Jewish scripture. Already, the filtering was beginning and Paul, who never met Jesus, was interpreetting life events that would be meaningful in terms of Jewish orthodoxy.  These Jewish scriptures included the Torah, but also Prophets and Psalms and the Septuagint which were in wide circulation.

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Early Acts of the Apostles
--------------------------
Also of interest to early Xians was the lives and acts of Jesus's followers, the Apostles.  These were written anonymously and were in wide circulation as people became interested in Christology, and more interested in what they should believe about their religion.

I will skip ahead a bit, but in this chapter Ehrman breifly covers the following Xian writings:
Xian Apocalypses, Church Orders, Xian Apologetics (see 1 Peter 3:15), Xian Martyrologies (about the 2nd century), Antiherteical tractates (which was one church defending itself against the teachings/position of another Xian church), and Early Xian Commentaries.




Next: the Formation of the Xian Canon.

I didn't make these claims.  i simply note that others have and then they have provided testimony and corroborating evidence. Since I have not made these claims, would you grant me permission to use inductive reasoning?


How odd, those who recorded the events claimed to have observed them in this world.


It is false and misleading for you to claim they are wildly different and anonymous.  Wild and different from what?  What evidence do you have that they are different than what the apostles taught and recorded?  They are corroborated by Christian historians with direct lines to the authors.


What evidence from 33AD to 115AD (first direct corroboration for the existence of the Gospels) do you have to support this claim?


How do you account for the fragments and partial manuscripts dating from 70AD through 180AD?


The fragments and partial manuscripts and the corroborating writings from 105AD onward.


Since you claim this as fact, please provide me a list of documents written about Jesus between 33AD and 105AD when Christian historians validated the existence of the Gospels and letters to the Churches.  Please be prepared to validate the dates.

The balance of your post simply launches into form critical analysis of the Bible text which you filter through your prejudice. I see no reason to respond to it.