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Author Topic: Reason Faith are you still here?  (Read 414 times)
HighPlainsDrifter
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« on: October 08, 2007, 11:33:32 AM »

Is Reasoned Faith still around here?

I had a (AGW) discussion with him, that I would like to continue now that I have learned a little more physics.

I will gladly take it to the “Science” forum since it does not directly involve an environmental solution.

I miss his scientific background.

Are you still around here RF? I know that AGW is not your favorite topic, but I will promise to try to cut the snide remarks.

I have new questions for you.

Thanks, T
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Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2007, 03:47:19 AM »

Yes, I am here.  I signed up the other day to answer this and a couple other topics that caught my eye.
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HighPlainsDrifter
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2007, 08:50:44 AM »

I thought I responded to this thread yesterday, but I don't see my reply. Did it go somewhere (Science?)?

At the risk of being redundant here it is again:

"Hi RF, sorry my reply took so long. I haven't been here.
 
My question for you is simple. It is a continuation of a conversation we had at another place and time. We were discussing black/grey body radiation. You knew more about it than I did. Since then I have continued to do some more reading. I suspect you still know more about it than do. I wanted to run something by you that I learned (?) and see what you thought about it.
 
In a discussion with someone else about long wave radiation from GHGs (CO2 specifically) they made the remark that GHGs tend to emit more IR radiation than they absorb. The balance is made up by the kinetic energy they absorb from the other gasses in the atmosphere. CO2 in the upper troposphere tends to gain energy not just by the IR energy it absorbs, but also through convection of rising warm air and the latent heat released by condensing water vapor. When they said this the light bulb went on in my head and previous explanations about why GHGs tend to cool the atmosphere (but warm the planet’s surface) suddenly became much clearer.
 
I wanted to run this by you to see if this is in line with the way you understand these things.
 
Thanks for the help, T
 
Mods, feel free to move this to Science if you want."
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 08:55:41 AM by HighPlainsDrifter » Logged

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Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2007, 05:16:37 PM »

i am having the same trouble with lost posts.  This is the second attempt at this post.

It is an interesting question and one that is difficult to answer with clarity.  Not because the physics is uncertain but because the described process involves so many sub-processes that the effects become obscured in the minutia.

Let me try.  I suspect you know this theory but I will explain anyway to be sure you and I agree (it is entirely possible that I am wrong).

First off internal energy (measured by temperature) is released in the form of radiation of frequency that is quantized based on the potential energy differences between free electron orbital states.  These quantities are fixed by the physical conditions of the atom and molecules involved.  Higher internal energies (higher temperature) result in more frequent (higher amplitude) emissions.  The electrons have an equal propensity at any internal energy level to absorb and emit radiation.  Absorption occurs if the atom/mollecule is exposed to radiation from another source (like for example another atom/molecule or a black/grey body emitter).  If any given atom/molecule receives more radiation that it is capable of emitting at that temperature, it stores the energy internally and heats up until the amplitude of emission equals absorption.

From above, it should be clear that in the absence of other sources of energy, emission equals absorption when equilibrium is obtained. 

Now clearly your scenario did not involve this case so we need to go further, but I will pause here to see if we agree so far.
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HighPlainsDrifter
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2007, 08:25:59 AM »

Hmmm, all the lost posts seem to have reappeared now.  Goblins of the season I guess.
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Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2007, 04:56:42 AM »

This thread seems to have some sort of system corruption problem.  the other posts can be viewed when you reply but don't show up on the main page.  I copied this again.

Quote from: High Plains Drifter
Lost posts; glad to know I am not the only one.

Thanks RF. A basic physics review is always appreciated. I remember (now that you mention it) that emission/absorption of photons is accompanied by changes in the energy state of the electrons. I hope where you are going with this is to discuss the relationship between internal energy of the atom/molecule, and the external heat as measured by conventional (atmospheric) temperature (subject to pressure etc.) I am somewhat vague about this relationship.

Please continue.

I had to dredge your response from the reply area, so clearly they come and go.

The radiation flux for the atmosphere is described by concentric layers of a sphere.  The net radiation of any given layer in equilibrium will be positive (just as you indicated might happen in your post) if that layer is receiving energy by convection and conduction and absorption of high frequency rf (sunlight) and negative if the opposite is true.  In general if any given layer is cooler than the layer below it, that layer will radiate slightly more than it absorbs while any layer slightly warmer or the same will disrupt convection and conduction and therefore generally halt this effect.  Now remember though that the layer emits and absorbs in both directions , but the slight net increase in emission will be up away from the surface and not back to earth. 

The presence of GHG in the atmosphere does "force" the earth's temperature to a higher equilibrium value that it would otherwise have without the effect, but this is true irrespective of convective and latent heat effects.  Convective and latent heat transfer has the opposite effect and dramatically cools the earth surface.  The increase in radiative transfer in the upper atmosphere provides a sink for the convective and latent heat and therefore aids cooling of the surface over what would happen without consideration of this effect.  Do you see why that is so?

None of this directly addresses the question of global climate change by variation of GHG concentration as far as I can see.
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