ryan77
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« on: October 08, 2007, 01:00:33 PM » |
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Gazillionaire George Bush thinks a family earning a household income of $83,000 a year makes too much money for subsidized healthcare for their children and can afford private insurance on their own.
That's why he vetoed the child healthcare bill Congress passed last week. Let's look at that $83,000 number closer. Is $83,000 a year in this day and age a lot of money?
The average American family has a little over 4 members (2 adults, 2.3 children). For simplicity sake we will say 4 exactly. The tax rate for this family would be 25%. Therefore, of the $83,000 combined gross household income the family earns exactly $20,750 goes to the IRS leaving a net income of $62,250 a year or $5,187.50 a month.
The average home price in the United States is about $227,000. Using an average mortgage rate of 7.0%, the fully escrowed house payment of the average american home is approximately $1,860.
The average American family has two working parents; therefore the average American family owns two vehicles. At an average monthly payment of $300.00 per vehicle, that is $600.00 a month in car payments.
The average family drives 11,904 miles per year and the average car gets 21 miles per gallon. The national average price for a gallon of fuel is $2.80. That means the average family spends $1,587.20 a year on gasoline or $132.27 a month.
The average family spends $300.00 a month on utilities, $400.00 a month on groceries, $538.00 on childcare, $100.00 a month on clothing, and $200.00 a month on entertainment.
$5,187.50 $1,860.00 $600.00 $132.27 $300.00 $400.00 $538.00 -$100.00 $200.00 =$1,057.23
Remember, this assumes averages of everything. I don't know about you but I spend a heck of a lot more than $132 a month on gas and a lot of these other numbers. It assumes the parents are completely debt free aside from their mortgage and auto loans (no student loans, no credit cards, no personal loans, no installment loans, etc.). And it also takes in no consideration for discretionary and/or unexpected expenses like unexpected medical bills, home & vehicle maintainence, back to school shopping, furniture & electronics, household items, gifts, etc. It also leaves out possibly the most important expense of all - money put away for retirement.
And even then, the margins are razor thin - only a little over $1,000.00 to purchase adequate health insurance for 4 people. I have independent insurance and we pay over $800.00 a month for my family of 3. And you can forget retirement.
And if you live in a major metropolitian area where the cost of living is double the figures above, there is no possible way a family earning only $83k a year could afford private insurance.
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2.DOH
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2007, 08:43:55 PM » |
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Evening Ryan. It's been a while. The average American family has two working parents; therefore the average American family owns two vehicles. At an average monthly payment of $300.00 per vehicle, that is $600.00 a month in car payments. If both parents are working & the income is ~ $83,000, isn't there a high likelyhood that one of the parents is working for a company that offers health insurance? And if you live in a major metropolitian area where the cost of living is double the figures above, there is no possible way a family earning only $83k a year could afford private insurance. You mentioned San Diego in the other thread. $84,000/yr would put you at the poverty level(your words) in San Diego. The median family income in San Diego is between $60,000 & $69,000, depending on the source. Are you saying the average family in San Diego is $15,000 - $24,000 below the poverty line? According to this, the percentage of those living below the poverty line is ~10-15%. ..& I think you & I can agree that "poverty level" in the US is a relative term. From the other thread: That's a ridiculously broad generalization. $83k combined gross household income for a family of four is poverty level in cities like New York, Los Angeles, Miami, San Fransisco, Chicago, San Diego, etc. In fact, all the cities you mentioned have median family incomes, well below $83,000. The poverty level in San Diego is nowhere near $83,000, or in Chicago...or LA.. Remember, this assumes averages of everything. I don't know about you but I spend a heck of a lot more than $132 a month on gas and a lot of these other numbers. It -is- a list of averages. Some people are driving a car that's paid off. Some are leasing vehicles for $199/month. Some don't pay anything for child care. BTW, $100/wk for groceries might be a bit low. Don't ask how I know. 
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Abraxas
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"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2007, 09:16:33 PM » |
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It doesn't matter. This $83,000 a year salary is a complete falsification on behalf of Bush and his administration or a case of simple ignorance. The only reason this number came up is because New York proposed people earning 4x the poverty limit should be covered. Those people would be earning 83K a year. Of course, that's provided all the actually poor people at the bottom (the ones earning FAR less) don't use the money first. This SCHIP is for poor kids. Anything else is propoganda. This says everything rather well: To say that George W. Bush spends money like a drunken sailor is to insult every gin-soaked patron of every dockside dive in every dubious port of call. If Bush gets his way, the cost of his wars in Iraq and Afghanistan will soon reach a mind-blowing $600 billion. Despite turning a budget surplus into a huge deficit, the man still hasn't met a tax cut he doesn't like. And when the Republicans were in charge of Congress, Bush might as well have signed their pork-stuffed spending bills with a one-word rubber stamp: "Whatever."
So for Bush to get religion on fiscal responsibility at this late date is, well, a joke. And for him to make his stand on a measure that would have provided health insurance to needy children is a punch line that hasn't left many Republicans laughing. Bush's veto Wednesday of a bipartisan bill reauthorizing the State Children's Health Insurance Program was infuriatingly bad policy. An estimated 9 million children in this country are not covered by health insurance -- a circumstance that should shock the consciences of every American. Democrats and Republicans worked together to craft an expansion of an existing state-run program that would have provided coverage for about 4 million children who currently don't have it.
It was one of those art-of-the-possible compromises designed to advance the ball toward what has become a national goal. Health care is arguably the biggest domestic issue in the presidential contest and, while the candidates and the country may be all over the map in terms of comprehensive solutions, there's a pretty broad consensus that some way has to be found to ensure that children, at least, are covered.
Make that an extremely broad consensus: According to a Washington Post-ABC News poll released this week, 72 percent of Americans supported the bill Bush vetoed.
The program Congress voted to expand provides health insurance for children who fall into a perilous gap: Their families make too much money to qualify for Medicaid but don't make enough to afford health insurance. The cost of covering an additional 4 million children was estimated at around $35 billion over five years. That's a lot of money. But in the context of a $13 trillion economy -- and set against Bush's history of devil-may-care, "buy the house another round" spending -- it's chump change.
Bush's stated reasons for vetoing the SCHIP bill left even reliable congressional allies -- such as Republican Sens. Orrin Hatch of Utah and Charles Grassley of Iowa, both of whom supported the legislation -- sputtering in incomprehension. As for me, I don't know what to call the president's rationale but a pack of flat-out lies.
The president said Congress was trying to "federalize health care," even though the program in question is run by the states. The president said that "I don't want the federal government making decisions for doctors and customers," even though the vetoed bill authorizes no such decisions -- the program enrolls children in private, I repeat, private, health insurance plans.
And here's my favorite: "This program expands coverage, federal coverage, up to families earning $83,000 a year. That doesn't sound poor to me." But the bill he vetoed prohibits states from using the program to aid families who make more than three times the federal poverty limit, or about $60,000 a year for a family of four. Most of the aid would go to families earning substantially less.
Bush's spurious $83,000 figure comes from a request by New York state to use the program for some families earning four times the poverty limit. That request was denied by the Bush administration last month -- and that upper limit is not in the bill Bush vetoed. End of story. If New York or any other state were to ask again to be able to raise the income limits, the administration could simply say no.
Bush seems to be upset that Congress didn't adopt his pet idea to tackle the health insurance issue through -- guess what? -- tax breaks. None of the major players on Capitol Hill thought this would work. When the White House persisted, Congress moved ahead on its own.
Hatch said he believed Bush had been given bad advice by his staff. He didn't take the next step and draw what seems to me the obvious conclusion: Either Bush didn't understand the bill he vetoed or he's just being petulant -- with the health of 4 million children at stake.
"I hope the folks at home raise Cain," Hatch said. Oh, I think they will.
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« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 09:22:29 PM by Abraxas »
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
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freethinker
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2007, 10:56:52 PM » |
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This is classic repiglicon smoke and mirrors. Bush's advisers looked at the whole picture and pulled the highest figure they could possibly find, as unlikely, unrepresentative, misleading, disingenuous and requiring much explanation to know what it represents, that it may be. Just get the highest number out there in you speech and that's all they will hear. In this forum, people do the homework and figure this stuff out but in the talk radio world of America its "free insurance for the well to do". Disgusting, lying, repiglicon money game, politics again, this time with the health of our poorest children as their football. How the hell do these pigs sleep at night?
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NO Third Term For Bush
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Hillary08
Jr. Member

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Posts: 50
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2007, 11:04:24 PM » |
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This is classic repiglicon smoke and mirrors. Bush's advisers looked at the whole picture and pulled the highest figure they could possibly find, as unlikely, unrepresentative, misleading, disingenuous and requiring much explanation to know what it represents, that it may be. Just get the highest number out there in you speech and that's all they will hear. In this forum, people do the homework and figure this stuff out but in the talk radio world of America its "free insurance for the well to do". Disgusting, lying, repiglicon money game, politics again, this time with the health of our poorest children as their football. How the hell do these pigs sleep at night?
I kinda find this thread funny... If ya try to CUT taxes for peopl;e making 80k + a years Then "ITS A TAX CUT FOR THE RICH" kinda funny how libs change who the rich is depending on what they want....
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\"Rudy offers the right the ultimate Faustian bargain: retention of power at the price of one\'s soul.\" - Buchanan
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Abraxas
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"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2007, 11:15:45 PM » |
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This is classic repiglicon smoke and mirrors. Bush's advisers looked at the whole picture and pulled the highest figure they could possibly find, as unlikely, unrepresentative, misleading, disingenuous and requiring much explanation to know what it represents, that it may be. Just get the highest number out there in you speech and that's all they will hear. In this forum, people do the homework and figure this stuff out but in the talk radio world of America its "free insurance for the well to do". Disgusting, lying, repiglicon money game, politics again, this time with the health of our poorest children as their football. How the hell do these pigs sleep at night?
I kinda find this thread funny... If ya try to CUT taxes for peopl;e making 80k + a years Then "ITS A TAX CUT FOR THE RICH" kinda funny how libs change who the rich is depending on what they want.... Kinda funny how ridiculous you make yourself out to be post after post after post after post after post after post after post... This program is not a tax cut for the rich and it is not an expansion of the federal government. This program is no more expensive than a month in Iraq and it does not benefit the rich in any way, shape or form. This program is being pushed by a preverbial wall of bipartisan politians and American citizens. And Bush just basically gave it the finger...
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
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freethinker
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2007, 11:36:47 PM » |
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I kinda find this thread funny...
If ya try to CUT taxes for peopl;e making 80k + a years Then
"ITS A TAX CUT FOR THE RICH"
kinda funny how libs change who the rich is depending on what they want....
See this is exactly what Iwas talking about, Pathetic (sorry Hillery 08) will hear the figure Bush says and never, investigate or listen to or want to understand what it really is. He lives in the talk radio world of America.
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« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 11:39:09 PM by freethinker »
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NO Third Term For Bush
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gkferris
Newbie
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Posts: 47
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2007, 03:23:58 AM » |
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This is classic repiglicon smoke and mirrors. Bush's advisers looked at the whole picture and pulled the highest figure they could possibly find, as unlikely, unrepresentative, misleading, disingenuous and requiring much explanation to know what it represents, that it may be. Just get the highest number out there in you speech and that's all they will hear. In this forum, people do the homework and figure this stuff out but in the talk radio world of America its "free insurance for the well to do". Disgusting, lying, repiglicon money game, politics again, this time with the health of our poorest children as their football. How the hell do these pigs sleep at night?
I kinda find this thread funny... If ya try to CUT taxes for peopl;e making 80k + a years Then "ITS A TAX CUT FOR THE RICH" kinda funny how libs change who the rich is depending on what they want.... What everyone ignores is regional cost of living. Where I'm from, a family pulling in $83,000 is pretty high on the hog. They're not the richest folks in the county by any means, but I'd say the collection plate at church probably gets a little heavier after it goes by them than anywhere else. A family like that would own a pretty nice home and a chunk of land, drive fairly new cars, and they'd have money to just generally have nice things. Put that same family in Manhattan or Philly or California, where the cost of living is much higher, or heck even just down here on the Delmarva, and they've gone from upper middle class to honest-to-God middle class.
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2112
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2007, 04:56:56 AM » |
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Okay, Ryan, I'm glad you brought this up. I was going to answer you in the other thread last night, but I was unsure on taxes (I was going to say around $5k per month) and I didn't have time. Anywhere I've ever lived in a big city the rent is always around $1000 or over, so you're right about that.
I have a couple of places where you're wrong, though. $300 per month per car is a bit high. That's only if you go to a car dealer and buy new, you can buy a slightly older car that isn't an SUV and get payments around $150-200 per month. Also, not every family has two cars, and if they do, one is much older and paid off. Not always, but in many cases.
I also think the $100 per month on clothing is a bit off. Maybe for some families, but that's a lot of clothes after an adult has established a wardrobe. I spend about $100-$200 on two kids and that's once every six months. That establishes a wardrobe for a whole season before they grow out of it.
So you're saying that the leftover $1000 isn't enough to purchase insurance? Average per household debt in the U.S., not counting mortgage debt, is about $14,500. Almost everyone has debt they're paying off and $1000 a month would be good to go towards that if it didn't need spent on health insurance. But I also think that if you can't afford to live in a particular city, then you just can't live there, you should move to where your dollar pays for more.
My point is, people think they need money for things, but you really need money for rent and utilities and that's about it. You don't need a new car, you don't need entertainment, you don't need daycare if you have multiple children and one parent stays home because they don't make enough to afford daycare for more than one child. People live on very small amounts, and the scenario you present is for someone who has many of the luxuries offered in America. So yes it is enough, though I am for universal health care for all Americans.
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zukiphile
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2007, 05:24:17 AM » |
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My point is, people think they need money for things, but you really need money for rent and utilities and that's about it. You don't need a new car, you don't need entertainment, you don't need daycare if you have multiple children and one parent stays home because they don't make enough to afford daycare for more than one child. People live on very small amounts, and the scenario you present is for someone who has many of the luxuries offered in America. Indeed. Anyone who has lived in student poverty knows that the idea of a family of four making $83,000 per annum not being able to purchase health insurance (the example also assumes that the earning parent/parents don't get health insurance through work) because they've just bought a nearly quarter million dollar house and a couple of new cars does not describe an inability to purchase private insurance, but an unwillingness to do so. That many families can afford insurance at the relevant income levels is indicated by the fact that this program would involve a significant number of chldren already covered by insurance.
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The Genius Shoes and socks removed, Ahk tries to count syllables But can\'t write haiku.
\\"...fuck off dickless.\\" -Ahkenaten
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.
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5uperChicken
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2007, 06:03:23 AM » |
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Everytime I get a face full of smokebreath, I applaud this legislation. It's benefits greatly outweigh the cost.
I'm under the assumption that no adults are covered? (I could be wrong), and that none of MY money will go into this...i.e. smokers only. I don't think 83K is far from resonable. (I have a family of 4+4pets)
The biggest problem I see is that if smokers start smoking less, SCIP will not revert...It'll be the rest of us to the rescue. Sometimes, they just want to get their foot in the door.
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Opmod
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2007, 06:45:24 AM » |
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I kinda find this thread funny...
If ya try to CUT taxes for peopl;e making 80k + a years Then
"ITS A TAX CUT FOR THE RICH"
kinda funny how libs change who the rich is depending on what they want....
See this is exactly what Iwas talking about, Pathetic (sorry Hillery 08) will hear the figure Bush says and never, investigate or listen to or want to understand what it really is. He lives in the talk radio world of America. He is saying that the same people who will call someone making 80k a year when it comes to a benefit is not rich will say someone making 80k a year when it comes to a tax cut will say they ARE rich. Not sure how true that is but that is what he is trying to say
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\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
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Opmod
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2007, 06:50:20 AM » |
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This is classic repiglicon smoke and mirrors. Bush's advisers looked at the whole picture and pulled the highest figure they could possibly find, as unlikely, unrepresentative, misleading, disingenuous and requiring much explanation to know what it represents, that it may be. Just get the highest number out there in you speech and that's all they will hear. In this forum, people do the homework and figure this stuff out but in the talk radio world of America its "free insurance for the well to do". Disgusting, lying, repiglicon money game, politics again, this time with the health of our poorest children as their football. How the hell do these pigs sleep at night?
Oh dear god no, not poltics? Your Pathetic in your disgust Free
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\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
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Abraxas
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2007, 07:56:16 AM » |
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The biggest problem I see is that if smokers start smoking less, SCIP will not revert...It'll be the rest of us to the rescue. Sometimes, they just want to get their foot in the door. Smokers didn't wince when they found out it leads to premature death. You really think 61 cents is going to change anything?
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
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gomper7
Full Member
 
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2007, 11:29:35 AM » |
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The biggest problem I see is that if smokers start smoking less, SCIP will not revert...It'll be the rest of us to the rescue. Sometimes, they just want to get their foot in the door. Smokers didn't wince when they found out it leads to premature death. You really think 61 cents is going to change anything? I don't know if this will change anything or not, but think about this. For most people, what is more real, the possibility of maybe dying a bit younger than they other wise would have some day years in the future, or the reality of 61c right here and right now? Note, I did not say you, I said most people. Just think about it...
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