ryan77
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« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2007, 11:40:39 AM » |
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I have a couple of places where you're wrong, though. $300 per month per car is a bit high. That's only if you go to a car dealer and buy new... $300.00 a month gets you a brand new car? What, a Ford Fiesta on a 20-year loan? The average price of a new vehicle is $27,958 ( http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-11-16-car-prices-usat_x.htm). Even if you had the A+++ credit required for the most aggressive financing option currently offered - 0.0% for 60 months - you would still have a monthly payment of close to $500.00 a month for an "average" new car. you can buy a slightly older car that isn't an SUV and get payments around $150-200 per month. Also, not every family has two cars, and if they do, one is much older and paid off. Not always, but in many cases. Well, we've already established its impossible to purchase your average new vehicle for anywhere close to $300 a month. So let's see what $300 will buy you. It would be financially stupid to finance a used vehicle any longer than 3 years, not to mention the fact that most banks won't even let you go longer than that on an older used car. So on a 3-year loan, at a reasonable used car loan rate of 7.0%, $300 a month will let you buy a $9,000 used car - hardly driveway candy. For the ridiculous $150 payment you suggest, you might be able to buy a $4,000 car which in most cases wouldn't even be dependable enough to be used as a daily driver for reliable transportation to and from work. I also think the $100 per month on clothing is a bit off. Maybe for some families, but that's a lot of clothes after an adult has established a wardrobe. I spend about $100-$200 on two kids and that's once every six months. That establishes a wardrobe for a whole season before they grow out of it. So that's $50-$100 per kid twice a year? Obviously your kids are still very young. Let's see what that number is when they get into middle school and high school. In any case, $100 a month is only $25.00 per family member per month - or $150 per family member twice a year. Again, that hardly seems like a lot. Particularly if you work in an office or some other job where you have to have separate "work clothes". Even at Wal-Mart, I doubt $150 would buy you a single office outfit - slacks, shirt, tie, belt, shoes, socks. Whatever the case, $100 average per month is certainly not a ridiculous amount for a family of 4. So you're saying that the leftover $1000 isn't enough to purchase insurance? Average per household debt in the U.S., not counting mortgage debt, is about $14,500. Almost everyone has debt they're paying off and $1000 a month would be good to go towards that if it didn't need spent on health insurance. But I also think that if you can't afford to live in a particular city, then you just can't live there, you should move to where your dollar pays for more. That's precisely my point. $1,000 "leftover" assumes this average family has absolutely no other debt outside of their mortgage and car loans. As you have already indicated, the vast majority of families have other debts they pay every month aside from just their mortgage and car payments. So in the vast majority of cases there is no "leftover" at all - it goes to student loans or credit cards or other debts. Therefore, there is nothing left to purchase insurance with. My point is, people think they need money for things, but you really need money for rent and utilities and that's about it. Really? You don't need food? Clothing? Transportation to and from your job? You don't need a new car, you don't need entertainment, you don't need daycare if you have multiple children and one parent stays home because they don't make enough to afford daycare for more than one child. People live on very small amounts, and the scenario you present is for someone who has many of the luxuries offered in America. So yes it is enough, though I am for universal health care for all Americans. Since when is basic food, shelter, clothing, and transportation considered "luxuries"? The senario I gave allows a family of 4 with no debt to live in an average home with a couple of old used cars to drive. That's hardly living in luxury. But I think the overall point here is that $83k a year for an average family is not a tremendous amount of money. |
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Totino
High Society
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« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2007, 11:51:09 AM » |
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Ryan are you serious? You need some education on cars. You can get a really nice car (Mercury Milan for instance) for 20k. That's 333 a month for 5 years. So it's quite obvious you are wrong.
Reguardless though, if you don't have alot of money why are you buying a new car? In reality smart people go to places like auction direct and pick up a used car with little mileage on it.
I'll also add that people who are in debt (excluding things like college) have no one to blame but themselves for debt (in most cases). You shouldn't be spending money you don't have.
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« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 12:05:36 PM by Totino »
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All creations, including god, originate in the mind
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Abraxas
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"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2007, 11:55:56 AM » |
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The biggest problem I see is that if smokers start smoking less, SCIP will not revert...It'll be the rest of us to the rescue. Sometimes, they just want to get their foot in the door. Smokers didn't wince when they found out it leads to premature death. You really think 61 cents is going to change anything? I don't know if this will change anything or not, but think about this. For most people, what is more real, the possibility of maybe dying a bit younger than they other wise would have some day years in the future, or the reality of 61c right here and right now? Note, I did not say you, I said most people. Just think about it... Well, I can't speak for everyone else... but 61 cents is insugnificant. They've already gone through tax hikes and inflationary periods in the past. It may stall smokers, but I think it would be crazy to think that it will actually stop it enough to negatively impact on the source of mosey for this bill... |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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2.DOH
Full Member
Karma: +83/-18
Posts: 171
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« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2007, 12:35:40 PM » |
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Well, we've already established its impossible to purchase your average new vehicle for anywhere close to $300 a month. Does it matter? A family looking for extra cash at the end of the month could buy a very nice new car for ~$300/month. I'm shopping right now, in fact. Totino's correct. A New Milan, Fusion, Kia Sorrento, Chrysler Minivan, VW Jetta, Pontiac G6, Ford Escape, Chevy Impala, Nissan Sentra, Mazda3, Honda Civic, etc. ..can be had for ~$300/mo. With little down. You may not get into a new Saleen, but you'll be getting a well equipped new car.  Dealers offer incentives, cash back, year end model sales, etc... A family looking to save money at the end of the month(for other things) can find plenty of nice new cars that cover a broad range of uses for well under the "average" price. It need not be a used Fiesta with 200,000 miles. |
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« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 01:07:01 PM by 2.DOH »
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zukiphile
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« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2007, 12:50:20 PM » |
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But I think the overall point here is that $83k a year for an average family is not a tremendous amount of money.
I think you'd have been better off starting with that point. $83,000 dollars is not a tremendous amoutn of money for a family. Is it a very good idea to establish that everyone without a "trmendous amount of money" should be federally subsidised? I doubt it. |
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The Genius
Shoes and socks removed,
Ahk tries to count syllables
But can\'t write haiku.
\\"...fuck off dickless.\\" -Ahkenaten
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.
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ryan77
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Posts: 131
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« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2007, 01:46:53 PM » |
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Ryan are you serious? You need some education on cars. You can get a really nice car (Mercury Milan for instance) for 20k. That's 333 a month for 5 years. So it's quite obvious you are wrong. First, more careful reading on your part would have revealed I cearly stated the "average" new car price which I supported with a link. Obviously the Milan is a vehicle priced under the national average. Secondly, I actually know quite a bit about cars. Probably a lot more than you. For instance, I know that the Mecury Milan does not qualify for the 0% for 60 months financing option. In fact, the 0% for 60 months is an extremely restrictive promotion that applies to only the most well-qualified buyers on only a handful of select models. The best possible financing a buyer can get for a brand new Mecury Milan is 0% for 36 months which even using your stripped down model example of only $20,000 still gives you a payment of $555.56. Therefore, its quite obvious YOU are wrong and that YOU obviously are the one needing the car education. I rest my case. Reguardless though, if you don't have alot of money why are you buying a new car? In reality smart people go to places like auction direct and pick up a used car with little mileage on it. That was my point exactly. The "average family" example in my original post had an average car payment of $300 per vehicle. $300 on normal used car financing terms will buy you a vehicle worth about $9,000. I'll also add that people who are in debt (excluding things like college) have no one to blame but themselves for debt (in most cases). You shouldn't be spending money you don't have. You shouldn't spend money you don't have, huh? So according to your theory on personal finance, unless you can write a check outright for a home you should continue to rent. You shouldn't start a business unless you can pay for the entire venture all at once with money you have saved in the bank. And you should walk everywhere you go if you can't pay cash for a vehicle. yeah, makes a lot of sense |
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Totino
High Society
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« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2007, 02:08:22 PM » |
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Ryan are you serious? You need some education on cars. You can get a really nice car (Mercury Milan for instance) for 20k. That's 333 a month for 5 years. So it's quite obvious you are wrong. First, more careful reading on your part would have revealed I cearly stated the "average" new car price which I supported with a link. Obviously the Milan is a vehicle priced under the national average. Secondly, I actually know quite a bit about cars. Probably a lot more than you. For instance, I know that the Mecury Milan does not qualify for the 0% for 60 months financing option. In fact, the 0% for 60 months is an extremely restrictive promotion that applies to only the most well-qualified buyers on only a handful of select models. The best possible financing a buyer can get for a brand new Mecury Milan is 0% for 36 months which even using your stripped down model example of only $20,000 still gives you a payment of $555.56. Therefore, its quite obvious YOU are wrong and that YOU obviously are the one needing the car education. I rest my case. Reguardless though, if you don't have alot of money why are you buying a new car? In reality smart people go to places like auction direct and pick up a used car with little mileage on it. That was my point exactly. The "average family" example in my original post had an average car payment of $300 per vehicle. $300 on normal used car financing terms will buy you a vehicle worth about $9,000. I'll also add that people who are in debt (excluding things like college) have no one to blame but themselves for debt (in most cases). You shouldn't be spending money you don't have. You shouldn't spend money you don't have, huh? So according to your theory on personal finance, unless you can write a check outright for a home you should continue to rent. You shouldn't start a business unless you can pay for the entire venture all at once with money you have saved in the bank. And you should walk everywhere you go if you can't pay cash for a vehicle. yeah, makes a lot of sense Except for tha fact that my mother has 0% financing for 5 years on her Mercury Milan. See I know from personal experience that you're wrong. So no you don't know what you're talking about. Don't you think what you mentioned falls under "excluding things like college". I would certainly call a car something of that nature. If you didn't understand what I said, you should have asked for an explination. That's why you don't assume. You make no sense at all. |
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All creations, including god, originate in the mind
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2112
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« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2007, 06:10:07 PM » |
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I have a couple of places where you're wrong, though. $300 per month per car is a bit high. That's only if you go to a car dealer and buy new... $300.00 a month gets you a brand new car? What, a Ford Fiesta on a 20-year loan? The average price of a new vehicle is $27,958 ( http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-11-16-car-prices-usat_x.htm). Even if you had the A+++ credit required for the most aggressive financing option currently offered - 0.0% for 60 months - you would still have a monthly payment of close to $500.00 a month for an "average" new car. you can buy a slightly older car that isn't an SUV and get payments around $150-200 per month. Also, not every family has two cars, and if they do, one is much older and paid off. Not always, but in many cases. Well, we've already established its impossible to purchase your average new vehicle for anywhere close to $300 a month. So let's see what $300 will buy you. It would be financially stupid to finance a used vehicle any longer than 3 years, not to mention the fact that most banks won't even let you go longer than that on an older used car. So on a 3-year loan, at a reasonable used car loan rate of 7.0%, $300 a month will let you buy a $9,000 used car - hardly driveway candy. For the ridiculous $150 payment you suggest, you might be able to buy a $4,000 car which in most cases wouldn't even be dependable enough to be used as a daily driver for reliable transportation to and from work. Well, we did. Our car is a 2001 Nissan Sentra and it was somewhere around 9k and the payments will be $200 starting in the year 2008. We paid about $6,000 outright. And before that we drove pieces of **** from the 80's. I also think the $100 per month on clothing is a bit off. Maybe for some families, but that's a lot of clothes after an adult has established a wardrobe. I spend about $100-$200 on two kids and that's once every six months. That establishes a wardrobe for a whole season before they grow out of it. So that's $50-$100 per kid twice a year? Obviously your kids are still very young. Let's see what that number is when they get into middle school and high school. In any case, $100 a month is only $25.00 per family member per month - or $150 per family member twice a year. Again, that hardly seems like a lot. Particularly if you work in an office or some other job where you have to have separate "work clothes". Even at Wal-Mart, I doubt $150 would buy you a single office outfit - slacks, shirt, tie, belt, shoes, socks. Whatever the case, $100 average per month is certainly not a ridiculous amount for a family of 4. I'm lucky to spend $100 per year on my own clothing. And growing up I remember not asking my parents for clothes because for whatever reason I thought they would say no. They wouldn't have, they both made decent money, but I just didn't think that they would. Yes, men's office clothes can be quite expensive, I'll give you that. So can women's if she works in an office, but like I said, after your base wardrobe has been established, it's not like you're going to grow out of the clothes. So you're saying that the leftover $1000 isn't enough to purchase insurance? Average per household debt in the U.S., not counting mortgage debt, is about $14,500. Almost everyone has debt they're paying off and $1000 a month would be good to go towards that if it didn't need spent on health insurance. But I also think that if you can't afford to live in a particular city, then you just can't live there, you should move to where your dollar pays for more. That's precisely my point. $1,000 "leftover" assumes this average family has absolutely no other debt outside of their mortgage and car loans. As you have already indicated, the vast majority of families have other debts they pay every month aside from just their mortgage and car payments. So in the vast majority of cases there is no "leftover" at all - it goes to student loans or credit cards or other debts. Therefore, there is nothing left to purchase insurance with. My point is, people think they need money for things, but you really need money for rent and utilities and that's about it. Really? You don't need food? Clothing? Transportation to and from your job? You don't need a new car, you don't need entertainment, you don't need daycare if you have multiple children and one parent stays home because they don't make enough to afford daycare for more than one child. People live on very small amounts, and the scenario you present is for someone who has many of the luxuries offered in America. So yes it is enough, though I am for universal health care for all Americans. Since when is basic food, shelter, clothing, and transportation considered "luxuries"? The senario I gave allows a family of 4 with no debt to live in an average home with a couple of old used cars to drive. That's hardly living in luxury. But I think the overall point here is that $83k a year for an average family is not a tremendous amount of money. Yes, you need money for extra things, especially food. But, you can live off of spagetti and ramen noodles if you don't have the money after your two luxurious car payments and fancy office clothes.  I'm just kidding. There's always always always emergencies that come up that you have to pay for, always. But, moral of the story is that you can survive on $83k easy. EASY. We live on four times less than that and we are a family of four. But, of course, that's just taxable income. |
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2007, 06:38:12 PM » |
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The real figure is half that. So reargue your points, only use $41,300 instead of $83,000. $83,000 is false. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/20169.html$41,300 is real. Get it? I knew you could!
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What you got is everything-and I mean everything—run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis. --John DiIulio, former White House official
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ryan77
Full Member
Karma: +41/-34
Posts: 131
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« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2007, 06:58:35 PM » |
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I'm shopping right now, in fact.
Totino's correct. A New Milan, Fusion, Kia Sorrento, Chrysler Minivan, VW Jetta,
Pontiac G6, Ford Escape, Chevy Impala, Nissan Sentra, Mazda3, Honda Civic, etc.
..can be had for ~$300/mo. With little down. You and Totino are missing the overall point of the post. Most importantly, I was using - and clearly stated I was using - "average" new car prices. You and Totino both are pulling examples out of your respective butt's of economy boxes at the very bottom end of the automobile latter and saying "Ha! see I told ya, you can get a brand new car for $300 a month" and even then you have to use financing options that assume at the very least 4, 5, or 6 year loan terms which you would have to be a complete moron to do on a Kia or Chevy Impala since you would be guaranteeing yourself to be permanently upside down in that vehicle for life - even at 0.0% interest. You may not get into a new Saleen, but you'll be getting a well equipped new car. Hey now, that's hitting below the belt. But honestly, of all the dumb purchase decisions I have made (and I've made a lot of them) that is by far the dumbest and I've regretted it every day since I made it. My payment is well over $1,000 a month and each month I write out the check I hate that car more and more. Dealers offer incentives, cash back, year end model sales, etc... A family looking to save money at the end of the month(for other things)
can find plenty of nice new cars that cover a broad range of uses for
well under the "average" price. It need not be a used Fiesta with 200,000 miles. Look, I agree, but the point I was making is that I don't think $600/month combined for two different vehicles for a family is some sort of outrageous luxurious expenditure. Granted, basic transportation could probably be had for less and some families pay more for their vehicles per month and some families pay less - but that is the point of using "average" figures. The total car payments of the "average" American family probably falls somewhere around $600 total per month. And if it does, it certainly doesn't buy them his and her Benz's. At most it gets you economic reasonable reliable transportation to and from your job. Again, getting back to the overall point of the post, I just think it is a little ridiculous for George Bush, Mr. Trust Fund Baby himself, to tell hardworking lower middle-class families they are "too rich" to deserve subsidized healthcare coverage for their children. |
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Dog Face 11B
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« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2007, 05:58:32 AM » |
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The best possible financing a buyer can get for a brand new Mecury Milan is 0% for 36 months which even using your stripped down model example of only $20,000 still gives you a payment of $555.56. Therefore, its quite obvious YOU are wrong and that YOU obviously are the one needing the car education. Alright moron, you want to use avgs.....the avg American does NOT finance a car for 36 months...national avg is 60 months.....but love how you change the facts to suit you..... BTW, you can get the Milan top model without the V6 engine for 21,000...so I guess you dont know shit about cars as you claim..... http://www.mercuryvehicles.com/configurator/BuildAndPriceModel.aspx?configAction=configTrim&brandCode=Mercury&vehicle=milanModel: 2008 Mercury Milan I4 Premier Base MSRP $20,420.00 Color Exterior: Moss Interior: Dark Charcoal $0.00 Options $725.00 Destination and Delivery 2.3L Duratec 23 DOHC 16-Valve I4 Engine with Five-Speed Manual Transmission 17-Inch 14-Spoke Machined Aluminum Wheels Premium AM/FM Stereo Six-Disc In-Dash CD Changer With MP3 Capability Leather Seating Surfaces Six Airbags Total $21,145.00 |
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« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 06:02:04 AM by Dog Face 11B »
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Sorry Dog Face 11B, you are banned from posting or sending personal messages on this forum.
Racist comments
Really BBW? Show me where I said one racist comment. But I can show you where a mod at this board has and nothing was done about it.
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2.DOH
Full Member
Karma: +83/-18
Posts: 171
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« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2007, 06:07:31 AM » |
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Thanks again zuk, but I can't see yours either.
It's a conspiracy against middle aged white dudes.
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