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Perrin
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« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2007, 07:03:30 AM » |
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This sounds alot like an assumption no one would want or love the child.
Most of them don't. If your baby is white maybe. If not, the baby's luck for finding loving parents would have better odds at craps. I've been involved in facilitating adoptions, and believe you are mistaken. The demand for healthy babies of any color is incredible. Seeing a couple jump through the hoops needed to house, love and cherish a child is heartrending. Older children and those with severe disabilities are a different story, but there are people with extraordinary commitment and huge hearts who adopt them too. This is very true. I know of a couple that has been trying to adopt for some time now, they almost were able too, but the bio mom decided to keep the kid at the last minute. They were devastated. We have a couple in our neighborhood who has to adopt from Russia, because the demand is too high here. Now this is just anecdotal, but it seems to me that adoptions is a very high demand, yet low supply market. |
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A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.
In America, anyone can be president. That\\\'s one of the risks you take.
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zukiphile
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« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2007, 07:07:33 AM » |
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Thanks for that information Zuk. Specifically, do you know what the adoption rate may be, just an estimate (I know you don't sit there and count) from your own experience. Is 60% of all creeds and colors adopted, or higher? 75%? 85%? 100%?
I don't know. Based on the number of children american couples essentially buy from eastern europe and china, I am inclined to think that the adoption rate for american born babies without severe defects should approach 100%. Again, the numbers for the very severely disabled may differ. It isn't easy to parent a healthy child; those who adopt the very crippled amaze me. |
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« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 07:09:04 AM by zukiphile »
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The Genius
Shoes and socks removed,
Ahk tries to count syllables
But can\'t write haiku.
\\"...fuck off dickless.\\" -Ahkenaten
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.
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PinkTickingClocks
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Posts: 182
Be always at war with your vices.
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« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2007, 07:08:50 AM » |
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There is nothing worse than bringing an unwanted and unloved child into this world. This sounds alot like an assumption no one would want or love the child. Most of them don't. If your baby is white maybe. If not, the baby's luck for finding loving parents would have better odds at craps. You could make the argument that abortions no matter the trimester can be for the "greater good." Yes a zygote, fetus, baby, is or has the potential for life, whatever. That rejected child has the potential to be a burden on society; unloved, they'll become a criminal and then be sent to prison where they'll receive the death penalty anyway... why delay the process? -- extreme i know. Anyway my point is abortion is a "preemptive strike" to prevent what could happen. Sounds crazy? YES BECAUSE THIS THREAT IS CRAZY! There's no specific question and I'm spiraling into a pit of confusion. Is this legal or moral? WHAT PEOPLE?! WHAT?!!!!! |
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If only the transcendent moments were as timeless as a broken clock.
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Gojira
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« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2007, 07:18:00 AM » |
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There is nothing worse than bringing an unwanted and unloved child into this world. This sounds alot like an assumption no one would want or love the child. Most of them don't. If your baby is white maybe. If not, the baby's luck for finding loving parents would have better odds at craps. You could make the argument that abortions no matter the trimester can be for the "greater good." Yes a zygote, fetus, baby, is or has the potential for life, whatever. That rejected child has the potential to be a burden on society; unloved, they'll become a criminal and then be sent to prison where they'll receive the death penalty anyway... why delay the process? -- extreme i know. Anyway my point is abortion is a "preemptive strike" to prevent what could happen. Sounds crazy? YES BECAUSE THIS THREAT IS CRAZY! There's no specific question and I'm spiraling into a pit of confusion. Is this legal or moral? WHAT PEOPLE?! WHAT?!!!!! I think you have been reading too much freakonomics. |
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Our democracy has created an environment of indecision at times of impending crisis.
If life is easy for you, then you aint livin.
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PinkTickingClocks
Full Member
Karma: +12/-13
Posts: 182
Be always at war with your vices.
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« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2007, 07:29:35 AM » |
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There is nothing worse than bringing an unwanted and unloved child into this world. This sounds alot like an assumption no one would want or love the child. Most of them don't. If your baby is white maybe. If not, the baby's luck for finding loving parents would have better odds at craps. You could make the argument that abortions no matter the trimester can be for the "greater good." Yes a zygote, fetus, baby, is or has the potential for life, whatever. That rejected child has the potential to be a burden on society; unloved, they'll become a criminal and then be sent to prison where they'll receive the death penalty anyway... why delay the process? -- extreme i know. Anyway my point is abortion is a "preemptive strike" to prevent what could happen. Sounds crazy? YES BECAUSE THIS THREAT IS CRAZY! There's no specific question and I'm spiraling into a pit of confusion. Is this legal or moral? WHAT PEOPLE?! WHAT?!!!!! I think you have been reading too much freakonomics. No, I had these thoughts before thats why freakonomics was an awesome book and the arguments really resonated. |
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If only the transcendent moments were as timeless as a broken clock.
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Patton
Global Moderator
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« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2007, 08:13:45 AM » |
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One, I wasn't trying to patronize you. Since tone is not able to be portrayed very well through the internet, it is possible that I misjudged your reaction and you misjudged mine. Please accept my apology then...I do not take to condescending or patronizing behavior very well, I most certainly must have misjudged your words. Two, I am glad you know how you feel on the issue, congrats, and since you say I don't know your stance, then please enlighten me. From IAP 1.0: This is an extremely tough issue to negotiate through, my position has changed course over the last quarter century or so.
First, from a moral standpoint, I find it wrong, and am against the decision to undertake one.
It is murder.
However, having worked in public health my entire adult life, there are inescapable realities.
There are many factors in play that make Abortion a reality.
Men and Women will not stop having unprotected sex.
Many women will not want to carry the baby to term for a variety of reasons, so demand for the practice will never go away.
We, as a society, can deny a womans ability to have this procedure done by skilled medical professionals in a sterile environment, or choose to push her into undertaking extreme measures at attempting to abort in other ways.
If taken as a purely public health issue, the correct answer is clear...taken from a purely moral issue, it is quite different.
No one dies from questionable morals, but they do from sepsis.From: IAP 1.0Three, I must of misunderstood the physiologic similarities point you were making. I am still discussing the legal distinctions because that is the heart of the issue. Everything else is just feelings. I use physiologic distinctions for those who wish to appease their sense of morality by trying to make the human fetus less than human and therefore subject to elective termination with no more thought than squashing a bug. You are very correct in that the ISSUE is related to LEGAL distinction of RIGHTS...these LEGAL distinctions make no mention of whether a human fetus is IN FACT a human being....they are used in order to confer rights of the mother to "choose" life or death for her child. As an aside...I have had the pleasure to discuss this issue with many here before...one of my favorites with regards to "legal-vs-physiologic" distinctions begins about here, it is on page 18 of a 20 page thread...an IAP 1.0 classic: IAP Abortion Classic |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Voltaire2.0
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« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2007, 09:49:35 AM » |
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Whatever else one can say on this subject, these facts remain incontrovertible:
#1: The decision to have an abortion or carry a fetus to term is a reproductive decision.
#2: Reproductive decisions can and should be made by the parents and anyone they choose to involve, not the state.
No one likes abortions. No one promotes abortions. In fact, most of us who support legal abortions also support programs that promote safe sex and abstinence, in order to help reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.
It seems clear to me that the abortion issue is primarily one rooted in partisan, evangelical religious politics. I believe most pro-life people genuinely care for the unborn; I also believe they let their emotional reactions blind them to the facts of life.
Namely: unwanted pregnancies happen. It's an ugly fact; people who are not ready for or capable of the responsibilities of being a parent get pregnant. That fact is not going to change. The question is, how do we treat the people who face this crushingly difficult situation?
My answer is, we treat them with dignity and respect that they deserve. We support them, rather than labelling them "whores" and "babykillers." We do our best to put ourselves in their shoes, and try to understand the decisions they face.
Then we respect their right to make their own reproductive decisions. Period.
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Jesus is my pilot
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« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2007, 10:26:53 AM » |
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...incontrovertible...
I don't think this word means what you think it means... |
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Follow me, and you will not walk in darkness. -Jesus Christ
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2112
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« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2007, 10:36:38 AM » |
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Very good post, Voltaire 2.0.
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zukiphile
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« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2007, 10:53:27 AM » |
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Whatever else one can say on this subject, these facts remain incontrovertible:
#1: The decision to have an abortion or carry a fetus to term is a reproductive decision. Copulating is a reproductive decision. A long time ago, Chovy wrote "People [copulate]. What do they think they are going to get? Donuts?" |
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The Genius
Shoes and socks removed,
Ahk tries to count syllables
But can\'t write haiku.
\\"...fuck off dickless.\\" -Ahkenaten
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.
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Abraxas
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"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2007, 11:01:38 AM » |
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Sorry for being so late... my computer is having a bit of an issue and I can't seem to move on the internet very quickly.
Alright, Voltaire, I think you made a good post, and I partly agree with your reasoning. Whether or not you are pro-life or pro-choice is irrelevent. The choice is not the state's to make. But that same line of reasoning should bar the mother or father from making that choice as well.
"Life" is a right of all beings and whether you consider the fetus to be a person or not is irellevent... it is still undoubtedly alive and to interupt that life is legally murder.
I consider that life to be more significant than that of a chicken egg and stem cell research is a totally different debate entirely so it would be inapropriate to begin a discussion on that.
Even as an atheist I think abortion is morally and legally wrong.
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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2.DOH
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« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2007, 11:04:05 AM » |
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My answer is, we treat them with dignity and respect that they deserve.
How deserving are they if they can't treat the act of procreation similarly? |
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« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 11:12:15 AM by 2.DOH »
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Voltaire2.0
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« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2007, 11:20:04 AM » |
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My answer is, we treat them with dignity and respect that they deserve.
How deserving are they if they can't treat the act of procreation similarly? Please. Get off the high horse. People have recreational sex. That is also an inescapable fact of life. Unintended pregnancies can happen to anyone, regardless of their "respect" for the act of procreation. |
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zukiphile
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« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2007, 11:24:57 AM » |
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People have recreational sex. People also bungee jump. When people undertake an act with a foreseeable and known risk, it is not a sort of cosmic injustice when the natural consequence arises. |
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The Genius
Shoes and socks removed,
Ahk tries to count syllables
But can\'t write haiku.
\\"...fuck off dickless.\\" -Ahkenaten
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.
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Voltaire2.0
Newbie
Karma: +3/-5
Posts: 29
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« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2007, 11:29:01 AM » |
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People have recreational sex. People also bungee jump. When people undertake an act with a foreseeable and known risk, it is not a sort of cosmic injustice when the natural consequence arises. I can't believe you just compared unintended pregnancy to bungee-dying. I'm not talking about justice. I said the decision about whether or not to continue with the pregnancy is the parents' to make. |
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