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Author Topic: This generation will not pass away!  (Read 915 times)
Shipwreck
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« on: October 11, 2007, 11:25:22 AM »

C.S. Lewis wrote: "Say what you like," we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false.  It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime.  And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing.  Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion.  He said in so many words, 'This generation shall not pass till all these things be done.'  And he was wrong.  He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."   

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.  Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."  The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side."

New to this site, have tried to get serious answers to questions about the Olivet Discourse from Christian websites and forums. Any attempts at resolving the problem with this verse always fail to take into account the totality of the words spoken by Christ in this discourse. Does anyone have a way of adressing this, without omitting or rewriting what the bible contains?

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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2007, 12:23:50 PM »

Could you tell me what verse exactly that is from?  As I am no bible scholar, I don't know.  But long before I could ever address any questions about this statement, I would need to read it in it's entirety.  So I could see the context.
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Shipwreck
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2007, 12:40:09 PM »

The Olivet discourse is a passage found in the Synoptic Gospels of Matthew (24), Mark (13) and Luke (21).
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targo88
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2007, 03:25:59 PM »

the passage he is quoting is V 34 

but what does he really mean by the word 'pass' he didn't say pass away.  He said this generation shall not pass but that Heaven and Earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass away.

 
Does pass mean to die?  Is that clarified here? 

The passage and it's meaning is vague at best and there can be much reaching from both believers and non believers a like here.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2007, 04:12:29 PM »

C.S. Lewis wrote: "Say what you like," we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false.  It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime.  And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing.  Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion.  He said in so many words, 'This generation shall not pass till all these things be done.'  And he was wrong.  He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."   

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.  Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."  The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side."

New to this site, have tried to get serious answers to questions about the Olivet Discourse from Christian websites and forums. Any attempts at resolving the problem with this verse always fail to take into account the totality of the words spoken by Christ in this discourse. Does anyone have a way of adressing this, without omitting or rewriting what the bible contains?

I see no way of providing a completely satisfactory explanation that removes all the difficulties in these passages given you prerequisites.  You are correct that this is the one, of perhaps less than six difficulties, that cannot be completely resolved. Within Christian apologetics there are several viewpoints alone.  CS Lewis' voices just one of them.

There is confusion over exactly what "these things" Jesus referred.  There is confusion over what was meant by "this generation" also. 

Given the uncertainty, is is unclear that the first statement contains an error or simply represents misinterpretation on CS Lewis' and now also on your part.  To your second point, there are several other occasions where Jesus is said to have acknowledged that as the son, his knowledge was limited by what the Father wished to reveal.  In other words, he often indicated his human qualities, which included limits.

So in summary you have indeed reintroduced one of the very few genuine Bible difficulties.  I note that many modern Bible footnotes alert to reader to this issue.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 05:21:14 PM by Reasoned Faith » Logged
Shipwreck
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2007, 05:21:12 PM »

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. The words "this generation" as you no doubt are already aware of, are very difficult to dismiss as anything other than the people living at the time, due to the Greek words that are used, and their other instances of use elsewhere in the bible. The point about the limits of Christ's knowledge is excellent but does not offer a solution to the implied problem of false prophesy. If Christ's knowledge/limitations were limited to the point permitting false prophesy, that would pose serious challenges to accepted Christian doctrine.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2007, 05:30:04 PM »

No it does not offer a solution, and I hope you didn't get the impression I was attempting to suggest that Christ's human qualities allowed for error on his part.  My response was intended to avoid the idea that there might be two problems here.  Again I agree with you that, given your prescription that no alterations in the transcribed words are allowed, the difficulty in the first phrase cannot be fully resolved.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 05:31:35 PM by Reasoned Faith » Logged
targo88
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« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2007, 05:37:20 PM »

again I might add that many have stated that the Bible has been dictated and written by man thus there will be errors in this.  I do believe that there are.... but if I am to believe in the Bible and in the existence of God then I am to believe in the redeeming power of God and thus it really doesn't matter.
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Shipwreck
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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2007, 05:37:59 PM »

the passage he is quoting is V 34 

but what does he really mean by the word 'pass' he didn't say pass away.  He said this generation shall not pass but that Heaven and Earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass away.

 
Does pass mean to die?  Is that clarified here? 

The passage and it's meaning is vague at best and there can be much reaching from both believers and non believers a like here.

To further clarify "pass" it is usefull to note the what the scriptures say:

NIV Matthew 16:27-28) For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. [28] I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

(NIV Matthew 24:34) I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

It is difficult to interpret "pass" as anything other than die.
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Shipwreck
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2007, 05:41:49 PM »

No it does not offer a solution, and I hope you didn't get the impression I was attempting to suggest that Christ's human qualities allowed for error on his part.  My response was intended to avoid the idea that there might be two problems here.  Again I agree with you that, given your prescription that no alterations in the transcribed words are allowed, the difficulty in the first phrase cannot be fully resolved.

Thank you for your directness. How do you personally resolve this? Does it pose a challenge to your faith? How do you interpret it?
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targo88
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2007, 05:43:29 PM »

But do you think though for a moment that when we die we actually do see Christ and we do see all that has been foretold?  It's possible now isn't it?  It also says that there will be much that is not explained and much that we will not know... Thus saying I walk by faith not by sight.
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Shipwreck
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2007, 06:02:22 PM »

But do you think though for a moment that when we die we actually do see Christ and we do see all that has been foretold?  It's possible now isn't it?  It also says that there will be much that is not explained and much that we will not know... Thus saying I walk by faith not by sight.

I think I understand your point, though there seems to be no basis for assuming that is what Jesus was saying in those verses., and I also understand your point about the Bible being written by man and thus subject to human error.  But by trying to explain this by saying the Bible is flawed and may not be trusted on such an important point cant be a satisfactory conclusion for a Christian.

Yes faith goes beyond reason and logic. In my opinion unless a person has had the experience of being stripped of both, losing all of the normal support and comfort of ones ego and it's creations, of having the core of your soul exposed, it is difficult I think for ones soul to be touched by the presence of God. It is difficult to know that God is with us. Once you have, then you know there is more than the material universe, though it is very difficult to express that to the likes of someone like the troll who visited this thread, just to spew hate.

 But how we define our faith, the name we call God, the person we worship, is defined by our faith in the scriptures also. The bible must be depended upon in order for a Christian to be rooted as a Christian.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2007, 06:08:39 PM »

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. The words "this generation" as you no doubt are already aware of, are very difficult to dismiss as anything other than the people living at the time, due to the Greek words that are used, and their other instances of use elsewhere in the bible. The point about the limits of Christ's knowledge is excellent but does not offer a solution to the implied problem of false prophesy. If Christ's knowledge/limitations were limited to the point permitting false prophesy, that would pose serious challenges to accepted Christian doctrine.
YOu are correct. So, what we have is a split in the religion into Partial Preterism, Full Preterism, and Futurism.

All make Jesus out to be not a Lord, but a Lunatic or Liar.

Refer to  Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:27-28, Matthew 24:34, Matthew 26:64, and Rev. 1:1-3.
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2007, 06:23:17 PM »

But do you think though for a moment that when we die we actually do see Christ and we do see all that has been foretold?  It's possible now isn't it?  It also says that there will be much that is not explained and much that we will not know... Thus saying I walk by faith not by sight.

I think I understand your point, though there seems to be no basis for assuming that is what Jesus was saying in those verses., and I also understand your point about the Bible being written by man and thus subject to human error.  But by trying to explain this by saying the Bible is flawed and may not be trusted on such an important point cant be a satisfactory conclusion for a Christian.

Yes faith goes beyond reason and logic. In my opinion unless a person has had the experience of being stripped of both, losing all of the normal support and comfort of ones ego and it's creations, of having the core of your soul exposed, it is difficult I think for ones soul to be touched by the presence of God. It is difficult to know that God is with us. Once you have, then you know there is more than the material universe, though it is very difficult to express that to the likes of someone like the troll who visited this thread, just to spew hate.

 But how we define our faith, the name we call God, the person we worship, is defined by our faith in the scriptures also. The bible must be depended upon in order for a Christian to be rooted as a Christian.

So, how do you reconcile it, assuming you hold the "Faith"?  If, in fact, the X'n only has interpretation from subjective experience, then where do they get the assurity of the Word?
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Shipwreck
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« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2007, 06:42:20 PM »

I don't reconcile it. I'm not sure how anyone does. Maybe with the exceptions of those factions you mention, nobody does. It's either ignored, swept under the carpet of the subconscious or unknown by most Christians and thus not a problem. Plus to answer your question on a more general basis, in my opinion only a very small portion of the human race make decisions about their world view based on points of logic like this. I think this is true for lapsed Christians, former Christians who are now atheists. If you ask one, they will tell you it was an accumulation of skeptical questions, but I really doubt it. The impulse beneath the questions was emotional. Maybe the atheist couldn't bear the guilt. Or needed to liberate himself from the moral requirements for one reason or another, whatever, the drive is emotional.

For me , my intellectual questions are my way of trying to find a valid way to articulate my faith. Faith that is rooted in an emotional experience that serves as the basis for my epistemology.
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