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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2007, 03:14:13 AM » |
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No it does not offer a solution, and I hope you didn't get the impression I was attempting to suggest that Christ's human qualities allowed for error on his part. My response was intended to avoid the idea that there might be two problems here. Again I agree with you that, given your prescription that no alterations in the transcribed words are allowed, the difficulty in the first phrase cannot be fully resolved.
Thank you for your directness. How do you personally resolve this? Does it pose a challenge to your faith? How do you interpret it? I resolve it by recognizing that I (and anyone else for that matter) am rarely able to fully understand every point the author of any book makes. Whether that is partially due to an error on the part of the writer or editor or publisher, I cannot say. I do know that I am not perfect. When I look at the Bible in total, it is remarkably clear and consistent so a handful of difficulties does not change that. In fact it is consistent with overall doctrine since we humans are delegated accountability for such things and thus you would expect the Bible to share characteristics that are contained in all writing. I further note that of all the reasonable interpretations, none change Christian doctrine except the one that has Jesus making a false claim, but based on the second phrase, it is not valid since we have him clearly saying that he does not know when the end times occur. This does not challenge my faith except in the sense that it encourages me to take the time to know what I believe and why I believe it. It encourages me to get to know doctrine and the Bible including all the difficult passages so I am able to give an account for what I believe. I interpret these passages by noting a distinction between the time of Christ's Kingdom and his return. I note that "these things" most likely refer to the other events Jesus also described that seem to be separate from the ending of the current age. I agree with CS Lewis that the apostles seemed to think the ending Jesus spoke of would occur in their lifetime. |
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Jesus is my pilot
Full Member
Karma: +62/-15
Posts: 108
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« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2007, 05:06:42 AM » |
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Hi Shipwreck, welcome to the site.
I'm in agreement with RF so I'll just add that I think Christians have to learn to deal with a certain amount of mystery (i.e. free will vs God's sovereignty). While these types of things certainly don't help with apologetics they are humbling and force us to rely on God to fill the gaps.
I'll also add, though you probably already knew this, every generation believed it would be their generation that would welcome Christ back. While their belief of his return may have been a mistake, the sense of urgency may be exactly what God wanted.
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Follow me, and you will not walk in darkness. -Jesus Christ
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zukiphile
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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2007, 05:08:28 AM » |
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Refer to Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:27-28, Matthew 24:34, Matthew 26:64, and Rev. 1:1-3.
Are those passages from the Bible you think is fake, or your "real" bible? On that subject, you have questions pending. http://www.itsallpolitics.com/forum/index.php?topic=418.0 |
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The Genius
Shoes and socks removed,
Ahk tries to count syllables
But can\'t write haiku.
\\"...fuck off dickless.\\" -Ahkenaten
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.
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Shipwreck
Newbie
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« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2007, 05:53:55 AM » |
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Any other site would call you on crossing threads for flaming. You all have alot trash floating around here, and some pretty negligent garbage men, (cleaning crew?) maybe they're all smoking dope and to stoned to deal with the trolls. Anyway thanks Reasoned Faith and Jesus is my Piolt and Targo, for some solid replies.
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Patton
Global Moderator
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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2007, 06:29:33 AM » |
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Any other site would call you on crossing threads for flaming. You all have alot trash floating around here, and some pretty negligent garbage men, (cleaning crew?) maybe they're all smoking dope and to stoned to deal with the trolls. Anyway thanks Reasoned Faith and Jesus is my Piolt and Targo, for some solid replies.
What was cut that you feel is worthy of remaining? I suggest you familiarize yourself with the "Forum Civility" sticky at the top. Tell us which post did not meet the criteria? You are new here and obviously do not know the history...also feel free to peruse the Archives to get a flavor for what once was. |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Biker Dude
A TRUE Liberal!
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Live to Ride, Ride to Live
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2007, 06:45:04 AM » |
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Any other site would call you on crossing threads for flaming. You all have alot trash floating around here, and some pretty negligent garbage men, (cleaning crew?) maybe they're all smoking dope and to stoned to deal with the trolls. Anyway thanks Reasoned Faith and Jesus is my Piolt and Targo, for some solid replies.
Nothing wrong with crossing threads in this manner. And I didn't see any flaming. A reminder that questions are unanswered is fairly harmless. Not sure what you feel could be better done, but new people that want moderating done their way tend to have short shelf lives. Hopefully you can overcome these control issues and enjoy posting. We can always use fresh voices as sometimes it seems like the issues are the same ones we have talked about a dozen times already. |
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 Who will watch the watchers?Now that it is over, what are we going to talk about? |
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Jesus is my pilot
Full Member
Karma: +62/-15
Posts: 108
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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2007, 08:02:14 AM » |
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Any other site would call you on crossing threads for flaming. You all have alot trash floating around here, and some pretty negligent garbage men, (cleaning crew?) maybe they're all smoking dope and to stoned to deal with the trolls. Anyway thanks Reasoned Faith and Jesus is my Piolt and Targo, for some solid replies.
Please recalibrate your sarcasm meter to accept Zuk's indomitable wit. He wasn't attacking you. EDIT - I'll also add that Zuk believes smileys are gauche and that we can see his beaming demeanor through the internets. |
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« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 08:04:44 AM by Jesus is my pilot »
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Follow me, and you will not walk in darkness. -Jesus Christ
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targo88
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2007, 08:33:13 AM » |
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But do you think though for a moment that when we die we actually do see Christ and we do see all that has been foretold? It's possible now isn't it? It also says that there will be much that is not explained and much that we will not know... Thus saying I walk by faith not by sight.
I think I understand your point, though there seems to be no basis for assuming that is what Jesus was saying in those verses., and I also understand your point about the Bible being written by man and thus subject to human error. But by trying to explain this by saying the Bible is flawed and may not be trusted on such an important point cant be a satisfactory conclusion for a Christian. Yes faith goes beyond reason and logic. In my opinion unless a person has had the experience of being stripped of both, losing all of the normal support and comfort of ones ego and it's creations, of having the core of your soul exposed, it is difficult I think for ones soul to be touched by the presence of God. It is difficult to know that God is with us. Once you have, then you know there is more than the material universe, though it is very difficult to express that to the likes of someone like the troll who visited this thread, just to spew hate. But how we define our faith, the name we call God, the person we worship, is defined by our faith in the scriptures also. The bible must be depended upon in order for a Christian to be rooted as a Christian. I suppose if we were just to take the Bible at face value then we would naturally find flaws and discord with it. But if, as you have pointed out, your soul has been touched by the presence of God then it's hard to walk away and it's natural to believe anything is possible. I believe there is a point that you're wanting to make Shipwreck.... you have started this thread off with a verse that alludes to the Bible being flawed yet you write like you believe. I can't help but think you are either testing to see what side of the fence people 'play' on or you have something that you're searching for. I personally don't doubt the existence of God, don't doubt that He created the universe. My only doubt comes in when I think of what man potentially has done to the word of God. But again I say if God is so powerful and mighty and we are to believe this. Then we are also to believe that He is able to redeem all. If I believe that then really it doesn't matter what has been written in the Bible b/c God is able to do so much more than we can, and He can redeem it. I don't tend to dwell on the details. Also Shipwreck you must realize that the members here at IAP have been together for sometime and I suppose we know their little idiosyncrasies and are therefore not as offended when they pop up as say a new member. Zuki meant no harm... he's just too smart for his own damn good now Daedalus aka barney knows more than you would think he does..... |
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zukiphile
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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2007, 08:34:57 AM » |
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Wouldn't he almost have to?
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The Genius
Shoes and socks removed,
Ahk tries to count syllables
But can\'t write haiku.
\\"...fuck off dickless.\\" -Ahkenaten
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.
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targo88
Forum Administrator
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2007, 08:44:13 AM » |
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Wouldn't he almost have to?
are you referring to barnes here? |
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zukiphile
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2007, 09:11:48 AM » |
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Patton wrote: I know that Bible scholars look to the Greek translation as many things do not translate very well from Greek to English: > >Would you please help with the correct translation
> of Mat 24:34> >
> >The Greek says:
> >AMHN LEGW UMIN OU MH PARELQE H GENEA AUTH EWS AN
> PANTA TAUTA GENHTAI
> (should be:PARELQHi hH GENEA hAUTH)
>
> >I was surprised to find conjunctive, and "an"
> particle, instead of
> >future (according to the versions I've read) It'd
> be interesting for
> >me what is your proposal for literal translation as
> well.
> >
> >I think that the particle "AN" makes the meaning
> little different
> >from defining *historical* points of beginning and
> end (for ex. the
> >sec. half of the I-st c.). Perhaps Jesus of
> Nazareth speaks rather of
> >period of continuance, e.g. less than 30 yrs, not
> mentioning the
> >historical point of beginning? Which would mean
> that we could only
> >get from here an idea of *how much time* those
> events would take, but
> >in now way *when* exactly they'd begin and,
> respectively, end ?
>
> "Truly I tell you, this GENEA will not pass until
> all these things have
> taken place."
>
> The real question is precisely what hH GENEA hAUTH
> was intended to mean.
> Here's what NET note on it says:
> =====
> "This is one of the hardest verses in the gospels to
> interpret. Various
> views exist for what generation means. (1) Some take
> it as meaning "race"
> and thus as an assurance that the Jewish race
> (nation) will not pass away.
> But it is very questionable that the Greek term v
> (GENEA ) can have this
> meaning. Two other options are possible. (2)
> Generation might mean "this
> type of generation" and refer to the generation of
> wicked humanity. Then
> the point is that humanity will not perish, because
> God will redeem it. Or
> (3) generation may refer to "the generation that
> sees the signs of the end"
> (v. 30), who will also see the end itself. In other
> words, once the
> movement to the return of Christ starts, all the
> events connected with it
> happen very quickly, in rapid succession. "Found Here |
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The Genius
Shoes and socks removed,
Ahk tries to count syllables
But can\'t write haiku.
\\"...fuck off dickless.\\" -Ahkenaten
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.
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targo88
Forum Administrator
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Posts: 589
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« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2007, 09:17:10 AM » |
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Patton THANKS for that and zuki thanks for catching that it didn't post and sharing it!
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2007, 06:04:02 PM » |
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BTW, it may be of interest that Mat 24:36 says ""of that day and hour no one knows, not the angels in Heaven, nor even the Son, but the Father only" "The Son" was editted out in amny manuscripts because they couldn't understand why Jesus (God) wouldn't know what God is thinking. Also, later in Mat. he recounts that Jesus drinks wine at the crucifiction after Jesus claims in at the Last Supper that he won't taste wine until he is in the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt 26:29).... Uh, ooops, wrong again Jesus!  Not to mention Mark 14:62 never happened (and considered one of the few phrases that Jesus actually said.) The Bible is not a prophesy, it is a collection of books, letters and poems, written by people with emotional experiences and celebrating the unknown. I only see trouble ahead when people seek to find secrets , codes, prophesies or other mystical things in religious texts. Take it for what it is: spiritual writings of our ancestors in a superstitious age. |
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2007, 07:05:44 AM » |
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BTW, it may be of interest that Mat 24:36 says ""of that day and hour no one knows, not the angels in Heaven, nor even the Son, but the Father only"
"The Son" was editted out in amny manuscripts because they couldn't understand why Jesus (God) wouldn't know what God is thinking. Some scribes seemed to feel they could take liberties while other clearly did not. The manuscripts of those who did not were generally carried forward. There are only three or four examples where scribes seem to have carried forward a significant change. None of these changes the meaning or doctrine. Your point in mentioning this is to claim that the Christian narrative evolved. However the reality is that it is documented that doctrine and tradition is the same now as that conveyed in the documents used by the Church as early as 100 AD. Also, later in Mat. he recounts that Jesus drinks wine at the Crucifixion after Jesus claims in at the Last Supper that he won't taste wine until he is in the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt 26:29).... Uh, ooops, wrong again Jesus! Oh come now. Your complaint is transparent. Jesus refused the wine offered during the Crucifixion. Not to mention Mark 14:62 never happened (and considered one of the few phrases that Jesus actually said.) Such profound insight you have that know what was said in the trial in front of the Jewish Religious leaders over 2000 years ago. But let's say Mark erred in that Jesus said this but not at the trial. How does this demonstrate your point since examples like this are few and far between? Your view is that the entire document evolved so this kind of thing should be the rule not the exception. The evidence shows that only minor variations in witness narratives exist. the same kind of variation you see when independent witnesses testify today. |
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