Patton
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« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2007, 07:25:02 AM » |
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One suggests that a tsunami wipes out people because of tectonic shifts, the other, because it was the Will of a being who moved the tectonic plates. We have evidence of the former, but not of the latter. What about the suggestion that a tsunami was the result of creating "something", and that "something" is allowed to evolve without influence of the one who created it? An architect builds a building...and leaves...25 years later the building falls because someone knocked out a wall...or pipes leak...or the bricks and mortar just get old. |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Callum
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« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2007, 10:35:24 AM » |
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One suggests that a tsunami wipes out people because of tectonic shifts, the other, because it was the Will of a being who moved the tectonic plates. We have evidence of the former, but not of the latter. What about the suggestion that a tsunami was the result of creating "something", and that "something" is allowed to evolve without influence of the one who created it? An architect builds a building...and leaves...25 years later the building falls because someone knocked out a wall...or pipes leak...or the bricks and mortar just get old. You have simply substituted 'creating' for purpose... but creating something does imply a purpose. Its all a way of smuggling in some form of outside-of-reality 'mind'. |
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Patton
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Karma: +107/-139
Posts: 1,846
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« Reply #77 on: October 22, 2007, 11:40:47 AM » |
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You have simply substituted 'creating' for purpose... but creating something does imply a purpose. Its all a way of smuggling in some form of outside-of-reality 'mind'. I do not deny something is/was created for a "purpose"....but the "purpose" of the creation is not the issue with the example I provided....I did not state the "purpose" of the building...only that once made, it was left alone to stand forever or fall by those who created it. |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Baldar
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« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2007, 04:38:27 PM » |
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All kinds of people here seem dead set on stating that if they cannot find a reason, it must not have one.
I believe there can or cannot be a reason and we have not been able to divine it at this point, and we may never.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2007, 05:28:24 PM » |
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All kinds of people here seem dead set on stating that if they cannot find a reason, it must not have one.
I believe there can or cannot be a reason and we have not been able to divine it at this point, and we may never.
1. No one is saying this, it is only you. And you don't seem to understand this. 2. How do you determine which event has a reason and which doesn't? Re #2, you seem to say that there MAY be a reason for things but you might not know because you can't understand the chess master (that is, there may be an agency that creates the event for a reason, but the reasoning is beyond us - perhaps forever (since, who will be as smart as god?)) So, you seem to be saying that we don't have the capacity, due to physical or mental barriers to understand certain actions that may, in fact, be for a reason. That is, we have eyes, but we cannot see. Even more, we have eyes, but because those eyes (eyes being a metaphor for our physical bodies, or materialistic existence, or lack of intelligence) are rooted in a world that is forver removed from the intelligence of god (or the chess master, or whatever), we CAN'T see. That is, we have eyes, therefore we can't see. I think this is close to your and Zuk's argument. That we as humans are limited by our nature to know whether there is a purpose or not, and therefore, we can't know if there was a purpose or not. Is this a fair assessment of your position? Obviously I disagree. I think we can see, and do. And I see no reason beyond materialistic mechanisms. |
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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Baldar
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« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2007, 08:47:06 PM » |
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One of my pet peeves is when people try to tell me that everything happens for a reason. Where is your evidence for this? Who is making these things happen for a reason? When a kid chases a ball out onto the street and gets run over, it happened for a reason? Did some magic man decide this kid needed to die? Is there some spirit world that decided this? What force is acting on these events?
My cousin had his first baby the other day. (first grandchild in the fam) This baby girl was born on the anniversary of my grandmothers death. Her middle name, which they had picked out prior to the birth is the same as our grandmother.
WOW! THIS MUST MEAN SOMETHING!!
Lets look at this with a little logic and reason.
They had a 50 50 chance of having a boy or girl.
There is a 2 in 365 chance that this baby would be born on this anniversary of grandmas death or on her birthday. Unlikely but certainly not a long shot.
They made her middle name the same as grandmas. My cousin and grandma were very close. This is the first grandchild in the family. I think its reasonable and maybe even expected to use grandmas name to honor her. Plus her name was Leslie so its not like they had to give her an old school bad sounding name.
What kind of mental state do you have to be in to believe some magical force made this happen? How could you not pick my above reasoning? Do people enjoy lying to themselves and playing make believe? It sounds nice so lets go ahead and believe it? Do we really need to give every special coincidence some meaning? Your opening statement says it all. Might or might not. No magical force necessary, it might have reasoning it might not. You don't know, but you automatically assume stupidity on your family's part. |
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Callum
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« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2007, 12:25:46 AM » |
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All kinds of people here seem dead set on stating that if they cannot find a reason, it must not have one.
I cannot speak for 'all kinds of people'. For myself, I have asked what is meant by 'a reason' in this context. I proposed that it meant 'the existence of some mental process in the flow of events'. This is in effect supported by your own use of a Chess Game as way of illustrating 'a reason'. However, in the original context - physical events - this is meaningless. There is no mental process discernable in any way. It is not that there is or isn't a reason FOR something happening - it is that the question is nonsense. |
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Baldar
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« Reply #82 on: October 23, 2007, 06:18:50 AM » |
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Its been explained in context. You apparently don't care.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2007, 04:25:09 PM » |
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All kinds of people here seem dead set on stating that if they cannot find a reason, it must not have one.
I believe there can or cannot be a reason and we have not been able to divine it at this point, and we may never.
1. No one is saying this, it is only you. And you don't seem to understand this. 2. How do you determine which event has a reason and which doesn't? Re #2, you seem to say that there MAY be a reason for things but you might not know because you can't understand the chess master (that is, there may be an agency that creates the event for a reason, but the reasoning is beyond us - perhaps forever (since, who will be as smart as god?)) So, you seem to be saying that we don't have the capacity, due to physical or mental barriers to understand certain actions that may, in fact, be for a reason. That is, we have eyes, but we cannot see. Even more, we have eyes, but because those eyes (eyes being a metaphor for our physical bodies, or materialistic existence, or lack of intelligence) are rooted in a world that is forver removed from the intelligence of god (or the chess master, or whatever), we CAN'T see. That is, we have eyes, therefore we can't see. I think this is close to your and Zuk's argument. That we as humans are limited by our nature to know whether there is a purpose or not, and therefore, we can't know if there was a purpose or not. Is this a fair assessment of your position? Obviously I disagree. I think we can see, and do. And I see no reason beyond materialistic mechanisms. Is this a fair assessment of your position? |
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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Opmod
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« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2007, 06:13:08 PM » |
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OK i am not reading this whole thread.
My opinion:
Everything happens for a reason is crap.
It flies in the face of everything I beleive as a christain and anyone who uses it as an excuse is weak minded oir had no answer for the question at hand and only wants to sooth the injured party.
A ch9ild asks "Why did mommy have to die?" and the grieving father or grand mothers says "All things happen for a reason and according to gods plan."
Well thats not biblical but I imagine I would do the same in the same situation.
Remember the orginal sin, the KNOWLEDGE of sin came from free will. God did NOT intend Adam to ve seduced to eat of the vine of knowledge any more than he intended for some moron to drive drunk and kill some kids mom.
"FREE WILL, Its a bitch somtimes." Brownie points to the person who can name the movie.
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\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
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Baldar
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« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2007, 06:25:35 AM » |
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Not saying everything happens for a reason, just saying we can't say if it does or doesn't.
I sure can't figure out the reasons for most things in the world.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2007, 09:32:35 AM » |
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what gives you the idea that there is a reason to discover in the first place?
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2007, 09:33:35 AM » |
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what gives you the idea that there is a reason to discover in the first place?
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #88 on: October 25, 2007, 10:11:42 AM » |
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no answer I see.
this is the problem. in order to suggest there is "something else" you have to be able to describe it, or provide some explanation why you think it exists. just because you want it, have faith that it, or hope it exists doesn't make it true.
and to simply declare that "something" exists is not a claim. it is vagueries and religous talk: nothing.
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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Baldar
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« Reply #89 on: October 25, 2007, 06:39:20 PM » |
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What makes you think there is absolutely no reason beyond your somewhat limited (and I use the term accurately) academic and intellectual capacity? I am sure you probably believe what you do not know must not exist.  |
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