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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2007, 02:15:31 PM » |
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So the undergraduate still contends that life beginning without The Hand of God is basically impossible, while the Ph. D.s contend it's entirely possible; indeed, some of them contend it's almost inevitable (see my posts above).
Why is anyone taking the undergraduate seriously?
You only indict yourself when you misrepresent your opponents position. Credentials do not make for a good scientific argument and neither does conjecture. A sound scientific basis requires empirical data a sound explanation for the data that comports with observation and a physical basis. Your friends with Ph D.'s don't have this information. Your articles in the posts above don't provide this information. Where is the empirical evidence that I am in err? You don't have it. Credentials establish a person's credibility. They don't necessarily mean the persons holding them are right, but it makes it more difficult to dismiss them out of hand. "My friends with Ph. D.s" have examined the "empirical evidence" and found it adequate to the task of generating life, with no need to appeal to an Old Man and Harp Music. I don't give your arguments any credibility. Do you have any mainstream scientific references which argue as unequivocally as you do that life can't spontaneously begin?
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What you got is everything-and I mean everything—run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis. --John DiIulio, former White House official
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illy
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illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing
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« Reply #61 on: November 10, 2007, 02:34:30 PM » |
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Here's am interesting article about some astronomers who found a star very similar to our sun. Solar twin discovery leads to speculation of extraterrestrial life Posted November 10th, 2007 by Mohit Joshi
* Science News * Washington
Washington, Nov 10 : Astronomers have discovered a star which is more like the Sun than any other observed till now. The star, HIP 56948, is located 200 light years away in the constellation Draco (the Dragon) and is being referred to as the Sun's 'twin' by astronomers, though probably being a billion years older than the Sun.
The new star has been discovered by the University of Texas at Austin using the 2.7-meter Harlan J. Smith Telescope at McDonald Observatory.
Before this finding, only three solar twins had been identified. They were 18 Scorpii, HD 98618 and HIP 100963.
But while they were all like the Sun in many ways, there was one major difference. They all contained several times more lithium than the sun.
This scenario made astronomers think that maybe the sun was unique with its low amount of lithium.
But the discovery of HIP 56948 with the same amount of lithium as the Sun has put that question to rest. It also suggests that the Sun's chemical composition is not unique, as previously thought by some scientists. LinkIf there are other suns out there similar to ours, it raises the question of whether there are other planets like ours. The article goes on to talk about how these solar systems would be good targets for SETI. Seems logical.
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it - Rugged Man - Give it Up
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2007, 03:01:10 PM » |
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I was reading that lithium has some interesting properties. One, not much of it was created during the big bang. And since stars have more effective nuclear fusion reactions to destroy lithium than create it, the cosmic supply of lithium has steadily decreased and continues to do so.
It's a highly useful tool for astronomers for measuring the ages of stars. All stars begin with a proportionate share of lithium, left behind by the big bang--about one in every 100 billion nuclei. After that it is steadily consumed by the star. When astrophysists look at the youngest stars, they follow a simple rule: Look for the stars with the greatest abundane of lithium. Each star's number of lithium nuclei in proportionto, for example, hydrogen, will locate the star at some point along a graph that shows how stars' ages correlate with lighium in their outer layers. Since so little lithium remains as time goes on, this method only works well for stars under a few hundred million years old.
I guess this is the kind of analysis that goes on all the time, which makes astronomers concerned when the find disparities between the chemical composition of stars.
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What you got is everything-and I mean everything—run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis. --John DiIulio, former White House official
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illy
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Karma: +106/-105
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illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing
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« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2007, 03:09:41 PM » |
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Interesting.
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it - Rugged Man - Give it Up
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2007, 07:32:46 PM » |
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So the undergraduate still contends that life beginning without The Hand of God is basically impossible, while the Ph. D.s contend it's entirely possible; indeed, some of them contend it's almost inevitable (see my posts above).
Why is anyone taking the undergraduate seriously?
You only indict yourself when you misrepresent your opponents position. Credentials do not make for a good scientific argument and neither does conjecture. A sound scientific basis requires empirical data a sound explanation for the data that comports with observation and a physical basis. Your friends with Ph D.'s don't have this information. Your articles in the posts above don't provide this information. Where is the empirical evidence that I am in err? You don't have it. Credentials establish a person's credibility. They don't necessarily mean the persons holding them are right, but it makes it more difficult to dismiss them out of hand. "My friends with Ph. D.s" have examined the "empirical evidence" and found it adequate to the task of generating life, with no need to appeal to an Old Man and Harp Music. I don't give your arguments any credibility. Do you have any mainstream scientific references which argue as unequivocally as you do that life can't spontaneously begin? We can start here: Chance and necessity do not explain the origin of lifeand here: Biological function and the genetic code are interdependentand this one: Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2007, 10:33:44 PM » |
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All three of those articles seem like honest scientific inquiry. None of the three seem to me to be saying "and therefore, the spontaneous creation of life is impossible." They seem to be saying "we don't know how it happens and we need more research and inquiry." The first two links only went to abstracts.
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What you got is everything-and I mean everything—run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis. --John DiIulio, former White House official
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2007, 05:06:27 AM » |
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All three of those articles seem like honest scientific inquiry. None of the three seem to me to be saying "and therefore, the spontaneous creation of life is impossible." Nor do I. If you review my responses you will see that I have corrected you on this point before. I have said the odds point strongly against it. The articles provide an assessment of the available scientific evidence. But the conclusion follows from the assessment the articles provide. At some point the odds become so overwhelmingly small that the reasoned person should suspend belief and adopt an alternative (at least until new evidence improves the odds). At what point does your faith in chance and chemistry give out? You talk of these discoveries in similar stars and planets as if they make a significant difference in the equation but you seem to ignore the magnitude of the odds. Even if one were to calculate that there are a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion suitable planets, one has not even made a dent in the odds of spontaneous life from chemical processes. You don't need to discover planets to revive your faith in spontaneous life from non-life, you need someone to discover unknown chemical processes.
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illy
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illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing
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« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2007, 08:31:56 AM » |
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You talk of these discoveries in similar stars and planets as if they make a significant difference in the equation but you seem to ignore the magnitude of the odds. Even if one were to calculate that there are a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion suitable planets, one has not even made a dent in the odds of spontaneous life from chemical processes. You don't need to discover planets to revive your faith in spontaneous life from non-life, you need someone to discover unknown chemical processes.
TBH, I'm not sure how this ended up turning into and ID thread, and I'm not entirely certain that an argument about spontaneous life from non-life is an issue here. We've found strong evidence of bacteria on Mars, so whether it would take some sort of intentional design is a fairly moot point. August 02, 2002
Researchers Publish Latest Results in Continuing Search for Ancient Martian Life
In the latest study of a 4.5 billion-year-old Martian meteorite, researchers have presented new evidence confirming that 25 percent of the magnetic material in the meteorite was produced by ancient bacteria on Mars. These latest results were published in the journal Applied and Environmental Microbiology.
The researchers used six physical properties they refer to as the Magnetite Assay for Biogenicity (MAB) to compare all the magnetic material found in the ancient meteorite -- using the MAB as a biosignature. A biosignature is a physical and/or chemical marker of life that does not occur through random processes or human intervention.
Ancient Bacteria on Mars "No non-biologic magnetite population, whether produced by nature or in the laboratory, has ever met the MAB criteria," said Kathie Thomas-Keprta, an astrobiologist at NASA's Johnson Space Center (JSC) in Houston and the lead researcher on the study. "This means that one-quarter of the magnetite crystals embedded in the carbonates in Martian meteorite ALH84001 require the intervention of biology to explain their presence." http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/20020802a.html
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it - Rugged Man - Give it Up
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2007, 08:59:37 AM » |
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You talk of these discoveries in similar stars and planets as if they make a significant difference in the equation but you seem to ignore the magnitude of the odds. Even if one were to calculate that there are a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion suitable planets, one has not even made a dent in the odds of spontaneous life from chemical processes. You don't need to discover planets to revive your faith in spontaneous life from non-life, you need someone to discover unknown chemical processes.
TBH, I'm not sure how this ended up turning into and ID thread, and I'm not entirely certain that an argument about spontaneous life from non-life is an issue here. We've found strong evidence of bacteria on Mars, so whether it would take some sort of intentional design is a fairly moot point. Why don't you disclose all the facts? Why don't you also include an article that discusses the contradictory evidence and problems the findings? Illy you claim to have a balanced and reasoned approach to science but you don't seem to exemplify your claim. Search for the truth must be complete and well rounded. Life on Mars?
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illy
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illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing
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« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2007, 09:10:18 AM » |
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That's rich.
Where did I claim to have a "balanced and reasoned approach"? (I think I do, but I don't remeber stating as much)
And where did I violate this essential tenet of my philosphy.
If you have a problem with what I've presented, how about if you just present your counter evidence without accusing me of intellectual dishonesty.
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 09:15:28 AM by illy »
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it - Rugged Man - Give it Up
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2007, 09:50:48 AM » |
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That's rich.
Where did I claim to have a "balanced and reasoned approach"? (I think I do, but I don't remeber stating as much)
And where did I violate this essential tenet of my philosphy. Fair enough, I stand corrected. Please accept my apology. Should I no longer presume that your tenets include presentation of both sides of an argument or balance or reason? If you have a problem with what I've presented, how about if you just present your counter evidence without accusing me of intellectual dishonesty.
Understood.
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illy
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illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing
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« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2007, 09:56:39 AM » |
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That's rich.
Where did I claim to have a "balanced and reasoned approach"? (I think I do, but I don't remeber stating as much)
And where did I violate this essential tenet of my philosphy. Fair enough, I stand corrected. Please accept my apology. Should I no longer presume that your tenets include presentation of both sides of an argument or balance or reason? If you have a problem with what I've presented, how about if you just present your counter evidence without accusing me of intellectual dishonesty.
Understood. What you should presume is to not fabricate statements that I have made. BTW, thanks for posting the link. I was actually unaware of that, so before you jump to conclusions and accuse me of intentionally presenting a one-sided argument, keep in mind that I don't have your credentials. 
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it - Rugged Man - Give it Up
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illy
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Karma: +106/-105
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illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing
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« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2007, 11:51:51 AM » |
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Well, a review of the presented literature does leave me a little more skeptical about the origin of the magnetite.
Most plausible is the proof that magnetite can be caused by shock as well as biological processes.
Certainly, the debate is not yet settled.
I would note though that the presenter's (Richard Cowen) view seems to be about as biased as I was accused me of being.
Kind of ironic, no?
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it - Rugged Man - Give it Up
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2007, 01:16:02 PM » |
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Well, a review of the presented literature does leave me a little more skeptical about the origin of the magnetite.
Most plausible is the proof that magnetite can be caused by shock as well as biological processes.
Certainly, the debate is not yet settled.
I would note though that the presenter's (Richard Cowen) view seems to be about as biased as I was accused me of being. Cowen presented a spectrum of articles, press releases and papers on both sides of the argument, did he not? Also he even showed where the original author of the claim has backed away from it. To be fair, I have no problem with bias as I think it is unavoidable. I (improperly) accused you of presenting only one side of the story, I did not find fault with your level of bias. Kind of ironic, no?
No, I don't think so.
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illy
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illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing
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« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2007, 01:37:22 PM » |
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# Third, the crackpot spin-offs (at least, that's my opinion of these ideas!).
Yes, terms like "crackpot spinoff" are the hallmark of unbiased science, as are sentences in all caps.
I would be interested to read where AND FINALLY, in 2004, Chris McKay gives up (without saying so)., but unfortunately, the link leads to an error page.
Ultimately, he does bring up some very good points, but I would hardly call him unbiased.
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it - Rugged Man - Give it Up
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