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Author Topic: SETI  (Read 1771 times)
jpn of Seattle
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« on: October 11, 2007, 06:27:13 PM »

By DENNIS OVERBYE
Published: October 11, 2007
Call it a small step for E.T., a leap for radio astronomy.

Astronomers in Hat Creek, Calif., are planning today to switch on the first elements of a giant new array of radio telescopes that they say will greatly extend the investigation of natural and unnatural phenomena in the universe.

When the Allen Telescope Array, as it is known, is complete, it will consist of 350 antennas, each 20 feet in diameter. Using the separate antennas as if they were one giant dish, radio astronomers will be able to map vast swaths of the sky cheaply and efficiently.

The array will help search for new phenomena like black holes eating each other and so-called dark galaxies without stars, as well as extend the search for extraterrestrial radio signals a thousandfold, to include a million nearby stars over the next two decades.

Today, 42 of the antennas, mass-produced from molds and employing inexpensive telecommunications technology, will go into operation. “It’s like cutting the ribbon on the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria,” said Seth Shostak, an astronomer at the Seti Institute, in Mountain View, Calif., who pointed out that this was the first radio telescope ever designed specifically for the extraterrestrial quest.
--http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/science/11seti.html?hp

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Cryptomaniac
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2007, 06:49:52 PM »

SETI is very much an ingenious way of trying to "spot" ET.  I just wonder if ET would be communicating using methods that we could detect.  You would have to be lucky enough to get a civilization that is about as advanced as we are, maybe slightly more, but not much more.  Already, we are experimenting with methods of communication where the signal is indistinguishable from noise.  By spreading out the signal power over a large range of frequencies, you still have the same energy, but no longer the obvious "spike" at some center frequency.  And, this ultra-wideband technology allows for far better throughput and is immune to many of the physical destructors of narrow-band communications.  It is also more secure since the signal exists below the noise-floor.  It seems like ET would have figured this out at some point, understood the benefits, and quickly adopted such a technology.

So after that bit of useless information, I would imagine that SETI would have a low probability of finding a signal they could recognize.  But then again, if there are a lot of industrial-age civilizations out there, perhaps we will hear something.  On the other hand, there are a lot of very gifted engineers out there and I'm sure they know a lot more about detecting such things than I do........

Maybe we will hear about something exciting in the coming years.
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2007, 07:42:26 PM »

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

It's hard to believe we'd ever contact another civilization any other way than via radio signal. I love science fiction, but fast-than-light travel seems pretty far-out.
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Shipwreck
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2007, 06:24:48 AM »

The really amazing thing about SETI is how big a failure it has been. Decades of searching with no results. It has made more than one scientist speculate that we may be the first. The first in all the universe. Even if E.T. civilizations had become extinct through massive scale war, there still would have been detectable signals of that civilization. And the odds are that not every E.T. civilization would have blown itself up, if there were any out there in the first place. So the utter silence out there starts to suggests, not only are we alone but possibly the very first.
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2007, 06:56:41 AM »

Great story but journalists are poo-poo heads:

Quote
natural and unnatural phenomena in the universe.

There is no such thing as "unnatural phenomena" in the entire universe. The universe is, by definition, all phenomena and there is literally nothing unnatural anyhere....there is only...
Quote
new phenomena
Which isn't really new, so much as simply undiscovered by the ignorant carbon mold stuck to this planet called humans.


Sorry. Great story, just a semantic pet peeve here.
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« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 06:58:54 AM by Ahkenaten » Logged
Ahkenaten
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« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2007, 07:04:44 AM »

Quote
The really amazing thing about SETI is how big a failure it has been. Decades of searching with no results.

How do you figure it's a failure? The idea is simply to put your ear to the sky and listen. Considering messeges or transmissions could take hundreds of years to get here how can 'not hearing anything' be construed as a failure, or proof that there's no "ET"?

Dont get me wrong, if you just kinda think it's a waste of money I could definately see your point, but failure? It never had much chance at 'success' in terms of finding aliens, but it is a success insomuch as the system works -- it is listening. It just seems to me that 'failure' in this case is definied as not winning the lottery when the only idea ever was to play.


Ahk
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Shipwreck
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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2007, 07:20:11 AM »

I agree with all your points, I meant failure only in relation to it's mission of searching for  intelligence. It has failed to find any signs of that. And at the time of it's inception, there was far greater optimism for it's success in this endeavor. A big factor for that being the Drake equation, that postulated advanced extraterrestrial civilizations throughout the galaxy and universe. Today the Drake equation is seen as fundamentally flawed, primarily based on the real data generated by SETI and it's failure to detect ANY civilizations.
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Cryptomaniac
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2007, 11:00:34 AM »

SETI to me is in a situation where even a "failure" to find something should be considered success. 

Think about it.  If SETI hears something, then the idea that we are not the only intelligent species in the universe will be Earth-shattering (figuratively speaking hopefully).

But to me, a realization that we are the only intelligent species in the universe is far more profound.  If we are "alone", perhaps we now know what our purpose is - to spread life around the universe.  If it is just us, and intelligent life exists nowhere else - then SETI gives us some small bit of evidence that what we have here is so unique, and so precious, that we can't afford to squander it. 

If you believe absense of evidence is evidence of absence, then the failure of SETI should give humanity pause and we should be rethinking our priorities.......
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Major Zee Lee
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2007, 01:14:43 PM »

My concern about SETI is...

Let's say you want to contact anyone, randomly.

Back in 1500, that would mean to send a messenger.
Back in 1850, you would send a letter through post.
Back in 1920, you would phone him.
Nowadays you would send a SMS or an e-mail.

Problem is, what if the recipent still expects to get a messenger... and can't be contacted otherwise? Would you bother to send messengers? Or woudlld stick to people advanced enough to have an e-mail?


Similarly, let's say you discovered The Mother Of Long Range Communication... would you still use pitiful radio? Of course, maybe the only guy around still uses radio... but TMOLRC is so good that your chances to contact are much better, so you sacrifice poor lil' underdeveloped radiowave diggers for a faster search of advanced guys who got TMOLRC at least...

And there they go your chances to be contacted, lonely Earthling radiowave digger... Wink
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 01:16:46 PM by Major Zee Lee » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2007, 01:25:15 PM »

Major Zee Lee the premise of SETI is a little different from how you have framed it, in terms of a message. Radio waves are light speed transmissions, their use for communication is supposed to be a very probable in any advanced society at some point in it's development. SETI is not aimed at capturing focused or directed signals. It is trying to pick up evidence of the use of radio waves anywhere in the universe. But the sky is utterly quiet. No noise. No radio waves anywhere. This is considered to be very significant. Very improbable based on our previous assumptions about the ubiquitous presence of intelligent life in the universe.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2007, 08:13:07 PM »

I think the SETI failure is expected, even by the people doing it.  The decision to proceed is that even though its against all odds, if they were to get contact it would be hitting a magnificent lotto.
The SETI program is cheap, considering the potential payback.

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Factinista
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2007, 01:21:08 PM »

Considering we have only been looking for other intelligent life for... less than 100 years I think it is too early to call it a failure.




« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 01:33:37 PM by Factinista » Logged
Factinista
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2007, 01:51:12 PM »

Another relevant issue with SETI could be found in the realm of Sci-Fi.

If we do contact intelligent life within the next 100 years they(ET's) would certainly be vastly more scientifically advanced than we. Given the rate of scientific advancement in the last 100 years it would be a conservative estimate to suppose an alien civilization would have technology we couldn't understand. This supposed civilization would likley have to be spacefaring to an extent we haven't achieved and would have an understanding of energy that we are centuries away from(if not more).

This being the case it could be a dangerous situation if we made contact with an alien civilization vasty more powerfull than us. If they had a similar evolution or history then it is also likley they would have experienced war. The danger of this possibility should be obvious.


For example, take what happened to the Native Americans. They were "discovered" by a scientifically superior culture with technology that to the Indians was indistinguishable from magic. They were nearly wiped out. Europeans had been less than 3,000 years more scientifically advanced. Imagine the conflict if we were to meet a civilization 10,000 to 1,000,000 years more advanced than us.


It's the stuff of Sci-Fi, but it's a possibility. Scary Cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2007, 02:57:19 PM »

I have no idea how my refrigerator works, but I really never considered worshiping the guy who gave it to me. On the scale of our solar system the earth holds chumpchange resources, 20million lightyears is a long way to go just to pick a fight.

We've been looking for et radios for a few decades, but we've checked only a tiny percent of the sky. And it's certainly not the darkest hole we're throwing money down.

on Cryptomainac's point about not sending recognizable signals; We are sending out am and fm raidio and tv signals without compression or spread spectrum so they would look like signals.
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Factinista
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2007, 07:16:18 PM »

Very true, if there was a civilization a millenia more advanced than us they would likley be more interested in the resources of Saturn, Jupiter and the Sun than our small blue dot.
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