IAP Political Forum
December 05, 2008, 03:42:54 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Default theme has been changed, and everyone reset due to some problems with posts disappearing after submitting.
 
   Home   Blog Forum   Help Search Chat Login Register  
Digg This!
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: This is why the middle class is dying.  (Read 599 times)
5uperChicken
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +20/-33
Posts: 312


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2007, 05:32:38 AM »

This government did NOT give us our rights, this government does NOT protect our rights for us.  The only thing this government can do with our rights, is TAKE THEM FROM US.  In fact, in today's REAL WORLD, the only group of people in the world that can possibly take away our rights, our liberties, and our freedoms, is this government.  Not the terrorists, not the fanatics, not the crazies, or the Muslims, or the gays, or jews, ONLY OUR GOVERNMENT.  It's up to YOU to help protect our rights from this government.
 
Yet we continue to vote for bigger and bigger government in control of the most important, most expensive aspects of our lives...go cipher.

Now, the reason you are seeing an increased level of "fanatisism" is a simple reason.  In 2006, the country voted into power the democrats.  They overwhelmingly went to the polls and shifted the balance of power over to the dems in both the House and Senate.  The American people did so for one simple unmistakable reason.  THEY WANTED A CHANGE.  Not just Iraq, and the "War on Terror," but civil liberties, torture policies, etc....

The Dems pushing the elections were saying we need a, "change."  When the Dems won, it was, "now, we will make some changes."  Has anything changed?  It's actually gotten worse, right?  I mean if you went to the polls in 2006, and voted for "change" would you say that there has been a significant "change" since the elections?  I sure would not.

a change in Iraq could have meant nuking the joint and throwing a parade.
We also voted in 2000 because we wanted to steal an election, then again in 04 because we were wacked-out religious fanatics looking for some morality...only in 06 did the will of the people become important...and the more open, honest, ethical, bipartisan government they promised was just as big a lie


So, despite the will of the people, the law-makers, and the law-enforcement, continue their overwhelmingly unpopular policies.  The government should fear its people, is there any indication that this government fears its people?  Is there any indication that the governent gives a sh-t one way or another about the "will of the people?" 

The "top tiered" candidates ALL support the, "War on Terror," the occupation of Iraq and Afganistan, the escilation of war in the Middle East, NAFTA, CAFTA, the FTAA, the SPP, increased involvement in the UN, increased involvement in the WHO, the world bank, the IMF, even though the overwhelming majority of America are against every single one of these issues.  To restate for dramatic effect.  ALL of the "top tiered" candidates support policies that the overwhelming majority of America do NOT support, yet, "top tiered" candidates continue to get elected and support these policies.

top-tiered, as in having the most support?
don't confuse intelligence with common sense...which is a sense of the community, which I think you're lacking.
Logged
FreeinTX
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +24/-50
Posts: 527


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2007, 06:24:10 AM »

Yet we continue to vote for bigger and bigger government in control of the most important, most expensive aspects of our lives...go cipher.


No we did NOT.  Remember Bush's initial election was based on a humble foreign policy.  One of NOT nation building.  Remember that?  The 2000 election went to Bush because he LIED and promised SMALLER GOVERNMENT not larger government.

When the immigration bill came before Congress, Congressmen were directly threatened by their constituents, to the point where many of the supporters withdrew their support, and voted against it.  Now they are back-dooring it as riders on spending bills, because they know the people HATED that Amnesty Bill.

No, we want a smaller, more controlled government, NOT an intrusive government making evry decision that affects our lives for us.


a change in Iraq could have meant nuking the joint and throwing a parade.
We also voted in 2000 because we wanted to steal an election, then again in 04 because we were wacked-out religious fanatics looking for some morality...only in 06 did the will of the people become important...and the more open, honest, ethical, bipartisan government they promised was just as big a lie

NO, the President would have NEVER been allowed to nuke Iraq.  Remember, this whole time we have invaded and occupied Iraq, this administration has said time and time again, this is about liberating Iraq, helping the Iraqi, not against the Iraqi.  You can't leberate a country and spread freedom, win the hearts and minds of a people by nuking them.  He would have NEVER been given any kind of authorization to go to war against the country and the people of Iraq.

Now, the rest of this comment is weird.  Bush and religion have NOTHING to do with each other.  I know he said he talks to God, and that God told him to attack Afganistan and Iraq, but he is a LIAR.  A puppet spouting out crap like you would expect in your typical puppet show. 

Are you going to deny that Gore won in 2000?  That the Supreme Court simply upheld that Florida cast its delegates for Bush, and it doesn't matter that the count was wrong?  I don't know who voted in 2000 to steal elections, but it was clear that an effort was made by a few to hand the election to Bush despite the Gore win.

In 2004, you were given a choice between Bush and Kerry?  Not really any different that the choice you will be given when Hillary and Obama team up and run against what ever loser you pick from the top tier of the Republican side of the aisle.  Kerry could NOT have done a poorer job of running for President.  Almost as if, a group, like Bilderberg, or the CFR, asked him to poop on his election bid.  I doubt very seriously, however, if religion had anything to do with the Bush 2004 win.  Especially, when you consider that people are in prison, right now, after pleading guilty to charges of RIGGING THE ELECTION FOR BUSH!!!!!

And the BIG LIE is my point.  I guess you are still lost in the game.  The FALSE LEFT RIGHT PARADIGM.  No, the 2006 elections were NOT more important.  Just ike in 2000 and 2002 and 2004, in 2006 people voted to change things because they did NOT like the way things were going, the government, however, refuses to listen. 

The government refusing to listen to it's people, in a country where the PEOPLE are supposed to control the government, Fanatisism will develop.  This is NOT about Republicans ignoring people or democrats ignoring the people, it is about GLOBALISTS on both sides of the aisle ignoring the average American citizen!!



top-tiered, as in having the most support?
don't confuse intelligence with common sense...which is a sense of the community, which I think you're lacking.


Ohh is that what GLOBALISM is about?  Community?  Well, yea, I am NOT a Communist, so I don't believe that what is best for the entire community should be forced on the individual.  I don't believe that the community determines what is best for me and the people I work to support.  I don't believe that the government is better able to determine ANYTHING in my best intrest.  The government should be limited to NATIONAL DEFENSE and SECURING OUR BORDERS.  This nonsense of getting involved in every aspect of life and making rules and regulations about every aspect of doing business, making decisions at federal levels about things that affect only the local community, does absolutely nothing to benefit the AVERAGE AMERICAN. 

Name one thing that our federal government does good.  The very idea of a buracracy is equivelent with red-tape, and inefficiency.  Yet the GLOBALISTS seek to add another layer of government, which we don't need, to the regulation and enforcement of policies that will do nothing more than add more and more levels of buracracy red-tape and inefficiency to an already complex set of laws imposed on us by other GLOBALIST leaders.

And no, I don't want the government of MEXICO with all their narco-terrorosts and child sex traffickers to have any say, whatsoever, on how we do business, on how we trade, on how we traffick consumer goods into our country, on ANY ASPECT OF MY LIFE WHATSOEVER, not one iota of input into the workings and goings on in my life.  Do you?

is that your idea of community?  Giving the drug dealers and the pimps a right to determine policies that affect your life?

FreeinTX
Logged
neue regel
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +61/-272
Posts: 1,822



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2007, 07:18:40 AM »

Quote
Are you going to deny that Gore won in 2000?

Show me one recount in Florida that Gore won. The closest was Dan Rather calling it for him with an hour left in voting that absolutely cost BUSH votes.

I'll sit back and wait...
Logged
neue regel
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +61/-272
Posts: 1,822



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2007, 07:24:00 AM »

Quote
That the Supreme Court simply upheld that Florida cast its delegates for Bush, and it doesn't matter that the count was wrong?

The court was absolutely correct in striking down an over-reaching, Florida Supreme Court and the Supreme Court did that with a 7-2 vote.
Logged
Totino
High Society
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +105/-133
Posts: 1,359



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2007, 08:44:39 AM »

Using Median instead of Mean is an old and dishonest trick. Now go find the REAL average.

As fas as inflation...there's milk, and gas....and that's it...Your 1000 dollars changed much more from 87-97 than it did from 97-07

How is using median dishonest?

"Mean" income is less meaningful in the U.S. because the rich are so much richer than the rest of us. An example from the late Molly Ivins:

"If Bill Gates walked into a soup kitchen with a nun and 40 homeless people, the mean net worth of all the people in the room would be $1,000,000,000. But there would still be one rich person and 41 poor people."

Median is therefore far more meaningful, because half of the population make more and half makes less. What is dishonest about that?


The median income of the room you describe would be ZERO..., then you're using a dishonest trick, because that is NOT the average.

If 90 people have 1 dollar and ten people have 100 dollars. (90*1 + 10*100)= 1090
The mean, or average...would be 10.9 dollars/person
The Median would be 1 dollar/person

Dishonest when meant to describe the average person. applied stats 101

a astronomer, a truck driver and a statistician go hunting...they see a deer...the astronomer takes a shot and misses to the left...thge truck driver takes a shot and misses to the right..."We hit it!" exclaims the statistician.

Well played.
Haha agreed. I'm going to have to use that joke some time.
Logged



\\\"Since you\\\'re going to loose everything anyway when you die, you might as well get rid of it now\\\"

\\\"All creations, including god, originate in the mind\\\"
Totino
High Society
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +105/-133
Posts: 1,359



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2007, 08:55:49 AM »

Quote
That the Supreme Court simply upheld that Florida cast its delegates for Bush, and it doesn't matter that the count was wrong?

The court was absolutely correct in striking down an over-reaching, Florida Supreme Court and the Supreme Court did that with a 7-2 vote.
Yeah, the Florida Supreme Court broke their own rules trying to rig it for Gore. But the bottom line is the real count said Bush was the winner, hence the reason the real court decided in his favor.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 09:21:28 AM by Totino » Logged



\\\"Since you\\\'re going to loose everything anyway when you die, you might as well get rid of it now\\\"

\\\"All creations, including god, originate in the mind\\\"
FreeinTX
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +24/-50
Posts: 527


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2007, 11:05:28 AM »

Quote
That the Supreme Court simply upheld that Florida cast its delegates for Bush, and it doesn't matter that the count was wrong?

The court was absolutely correct in striking down an over-reaching, Florida Supreme Court and the Supreme Court did that with a 7-2 vote.
Yeah, the Florida Supreme Court broke their own rules trying to rig it for Gore. But the bottom line is the real count said Bush was the winner, hence the reason the real court decided in his favor.

Oh really, that's the reason given in the affirmative opinion?  You better read that again.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-949.ZPC.html

And here is what we know about the "real count."
Florida 2000 Election Fraud
http://liesofbush.com/2000election.shtml

And don't forget, they STOPPED THE RECOUNT, and that was a 5-4 decision.

The benefits of 40 years of CFR appointed judges.

FreeinTX
Logged
neue regel
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +61/-272
Posts: 1,822



View Profile
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2007, 11:09:29 AM »

Quote


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Grin

I can post links too!!

http://fraudfactor.com/ffef2kcountways.html
Logged
jpn of Seattle
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +241/-233
Posts: 2,022



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2007, 08:03:45 AM »

Quote from: FreeinTX
And don't forget, they STOPPED THE RECOUNT, and that was a 5-4 decision.
The benefits of 40 years of CFR appointed judges.
FreeinTX

Yes, a 5-4 decision. And one of the five (Scalia, who espoused a doctrine of state's rights over federal interference all his career) had a son working for Bush's campaign, and another of the five (Thomas, who espoused a doctrine of state's rights over federal interference all his career) had a wife working for Bush's transition team.
Not that that should have caused them to recuse themselves due to a conflict of interest. After all, then they would have lost the vote and Florida would have been allowed to decide their own state's election for itself.
Logged

What you got is everything-and I mean everything—run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis. --John DiIulio, former White House official
cat_fta
Full Member
***

Karma: +3/-45
Posts: 101



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2007, 12:28:44 PM »

Quote from: Dog Face 11B link=topic=478.msg9667#msg9667 date=1192280942

And socialism leads to communism
[/quote

Socialism is a good thing if it's properly implemented.
How do you know it would lead to communism, you didn't even try it yet?
Because big corporate America doesn't want to loose profits and they conduct a very successfull anti-socialist propaganda, and because you make 50-60k per year,maybe, and you thing you belong to the rich elite?

What will happen if for example big corporate America will downsize when you are in your mid-forties age, and you will have to take a 30k per year job, and probably you will loose your big house and your lifestyle? This is what is starting to happen a lot in recent times and I can only see this social phenomenon to get worse.

Our parents used to fight for decades for unionized jobs and benefits and now we are just willing to throw in the garbage what we took for granted for so many years?
I know that people are envious for the auto assembler that makes 60-70k to start with, while many university graduates may get stucked for years into a 20-30k salary, but that auto-assembler is leading the struggle with the fat management. If he doesn't get it, nobody will get it.
BTW I'm not working in the auto industry, if someone is curious.

Logged

Freedom just for us, not for all.
Democracy is OK as long as is my way.
Opmod
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +58/-64
Posts: 730



View Profile
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2007, 07:58:11 AM »

Using Median instead of Mean is an old and dishonest trick. Now go find the REAL average.

As fas as inflation...there's milk, and gas....and that's it...Your 1000 dollars changed much more from 87-97 than it did from 97-07

How is using median dishonest?

"Mean" income is less meaningful in the U.S. because the rich are so much richer than the rest of us. An example from the late Molly Ivins:

"If Bill Gates walked into a soup kitchen with a nun and 40 homeless people, the mean net worth of all the people in the room would be $1,000,000,000. But there would still be one rich person and 41 poor people."

Median is therefore far more meaningful, because half of the population make more and half makes less. What is dishonest about that?


The median income of the room you describe would be ZERO..., then you're using a dishonest trick, because that is NOT the average.

If 90 people have 1 dollar and ten people have 100 dollars. (90*1 + 10*100)= 1090
The mean, or average...would be 10.9 dollars/person
The Median would be 1 dollar/person

Dishonest when meant to describe the average person. applied stats 101

a astronomer, a truck driver and a statistician go hunting...they see a deer...the astronomer takes a shot and misses to the left...thge truck driver takes a shot and misses to the right..."We hit it!" exclaims the statistician.

In other words, for the median income to be meaningfully changed, you do NOT raise how much the average person is making, you raise how much the POOR are making but unfortunatly for society, more and more of the poor have no desire to better themselves or they have done stupid things and can NOT better themselves.

The other day I was driving through a less than affluent part of town and as I passed a buidling I noticed a large,,,,flock,,,of woman, most appearing to be in late teens, early tweenties but a few very obviously early to mid teens, all with atlesat one young child. Cursious, and wanting to take a closer look at a few who where good looking, I wqipped around the block and drove by slower. Looking at the name on the building I investgated and found out it is a support foundation for single poor mothers.

THAT is why the median income is going down faster than a whore on the pier when the Navy comes to town.
Logged

\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
cat_fta
Full Member
***

Karma: +3/-45
Posts: 101



View Profile
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2007, 09:35:20 AM »

One solution is to raise the minimum wage. If you receive 500-600$ per month on wellfare, I don't believe you would want to work just to get 1000$ per month, do you? I will enjoy my free whatever government donation and let the suckers work for peanuts money, or let the illegal mexicans do the job  Cheesy
You have to try thinking as poor people think, if you really want to help them.
But, as always, the blame will be shifted to the lazy, poor people, not to the fucking greedy few.
Welcome to America, land of opportunity (to win Lottery....one day....maybe...work harder sucker, you are just a slave with the "free man" sticker on your head).
Logged

Freedom just for us, not for all.
Democracy is OK as long as is my way.
Opmod
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +58/-64
Posts: 730



View Profile
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2007, 09:46:29 AM »

One solution is to raise the minimum wage. If you receive 500-600$ per month on wellfare, I don't believe you would want to work just to get 1000$ per month, do you? I will enjoy my free whatever government donation and let the suckers work for peanuts money, or let the illegal mexicans do the job  Cheesy
You have to try thinking as poor people think, if you really want to help them.
But, as always, the blame will be shifted to the lazy, poor people, not to the fucking greedy few.
Welcome to America, land of opportunity (to win Lottery....one day....maybe...work harder sucker, you are just a slave with the "free man" sticker on your head).

Land of opportunity.....I hate that saying.

Most free countries are lands of such,,,,but it takes hard work, grueling, nearly back breaking woirk.

You know what most rich people who did not inherit thier money have in common Cat? They work 80plus hours per week and have no life outside of work.

The opportunity is there but NO ONE is going to just give it to you.
Logged

\\\"Something witty\\\" Some self impotant blowhard
Gojira
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-101
Posts: 1,611


Blasphemy!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2007, 01:23:43 PM »

How did this thread go from a question about statistics, to agenda wielding BS?

Voltaire, some don't appreciate a point one tries to convey, however you must be careful about those who are readily available to debunk simple holes in arguments.
The asterisks used I believe indicate dollars in real terms? 

In proving that the middle class is dieing, all you were able to provide is that the same quintile of people have a relatively stagnant income.  That doesn't mean the middle class is dying. 

However if you looked at the real averages as well you would have noticed that there has been a significant increase in real income. 

What does this mean?

This explains the polarization, and the support for your argument that the middle class is dying.  What basically is happening is that the poor is staying on the bottom with relatively small change in income while the rest are getting ahead by receiving higher incomes.

However, it is also important to note that relative to the real value of income, many conservative foundations have found that the poor of this country (poverty line is around 17,000 I believe) have all the comforts that a highly industrialized nation has: microwaves, multiple TVs, washers and dryers, bigger homes and other household durable items as well as abundance of food, clothing, household staples like cleaning supplies and even entertainment products.

So there ya go, I filled the holes to your argument.  Now what does this mean...

Notice in my analysis that it does not include debt accrued by low income families, amount of savings accrued by low income families, health benefits, government subsidies that are otherwise not factored in, etc...  Wink

 
Logged

Our democracy has created an environment of indecision at times of impending crisis. 

If life is easy for you, then you aint livin.
cat_fta
Full Member
***

Karma: +3/-45
Posts: 101



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2007, 01:30:20 PM »


Land of opportunity.....I hate that saying.

Most free countries are lands of such,,,,but it takes hard work, grueling, nearly back breaking woirk.

You know what most rich people who did not inherit thier money have in common Cat? They work 80plus hours per week and have no life outside of work.

The opportunity is there but NO ONE is going to just give it to you.


Let me try to make myself clear: first of all I am not against capitalism nor socialism. I think they can coexist together.

While it's no doubt that hardcore capitalism is the currency of trade in America, I was trying to imply that there are other forms of capitalism as well. One example is Europe. Another one is the new emerging form of capitalism that is happening right now in China, which has ultimate goal of enriching its people as a whole society.

Do you know what is the real problem in America? America is not a nation, never has been, you cannot say "american people", because it doesn't exist such thing.
You can say America "land of the many" or America as a state.

America has always been a new land of "opportunity" for the british empire. After the slavery was abolished the rich white anglo-saxon elite needed new workers to work their land and their factories. That's why they started to bring immigrants in and encourage multiculturalism, on the surface, because deep down the immigrants are always seen as second class citizens.
After a while the immigrants started to realize the real farce they have been brought into: in fact replacing the black slaves. Now the slaves are of all colours of the world: white, yellow, red.

So the elite, begining to realize they loose the grip on people, go back to basics and bang: Globalization, bring back the jobs to thirld world countries, where they can pay dirt cheap for the labour.

Things like theese don't happen in Europe, because you know why?
The rich people in Spain, for example, they are rich spanish people. While they pursue their own interest to get fatter and fatter, they will still think to give some to their own poor people.
In America, if you are poor, you are a fucking liability, die you piece of shit!
Why? Because America doesn't belong to the family of nations of the world.
Logged

Freedom just for us, not for all.
Democracy is OK as long as is my way.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.4 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC
Joomla Bridge by JoomlaHacks.com
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.127 seconds with 26 queries.