CedarPride
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2007, 12:03:58 AM » |
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And here is another link: Daniel Sharon: Beirut is the Paris of the MEDaniel Sharon, an Israeli who was arrested in Beirut in September on suspicion of involvement in the murder of a local man and released to German custody on Thursday, says he still sees Beirut as the "Paris of the Middle East."
Sharon told Channel 10 that despite his weeks in prison, he still loves Lebanon and in no way regretted his travels there. "It's a beautiful country, the girls are beautiful, the food's great," he said. Please Jane refrain from commenting on a country you have never visited. We both live in countries at war, but we seem to be taking it much much better than you  |
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Middle East forum 101 I committed the cardinal sin in the ME region of actually trying to post something relevant to the thread topic. |
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CedarPride
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2007, 06:48:24 AM » |
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Cedar,
The answer to your question is a simple one. The reason that the west supports Israel so heavily in comparison to the Arabs in that conflict is that we cannot find a partner on the other side. When we do, we pounce on the chance. Look at the history of the conflict. A number of times the Arabs tried to wipe Israel off the Map, the most recent and serious was in 1973. Look at that example. The west, notably the United States, sent arms to Israel and helped them to get the upper hand. But what happend when Israel then tried to exploit that position and destroy the Egyptian 3rd army in the Sinai? The US pulled in the reins and made the Israelis actually comply with the cease fire.
Look, in general I believe the west would love to be even handed in this conflict. The problem is, we go to the Israelis, and they have a stance like "well, we want to live in peace, and will settle here or there, we are ok with the Palestinians having a state with such and such restrictions"... OK, we can live with much of that, will need to work on some.
So we go to the Arab side and look for someone to negotiate with. Here is historically what we have heard "we would just like to wipe Israel off the map and drive the jews into the sea." How do you even begin to work with and support people with that position? If we can get an Arab state off of that position, we work with them and assist them, as we did with Egypt in '79. It is no coinsidence that Israel and Egypt have been the number one and two recipients of US foreign aid since that time.
And of course the Arabs see this as the west siding with their enemies and persecuting them. So from a western perspective, we see two choices - 1) be seen by the Arab world as evil always support Israel zionist imperialists or 2) help the Arabs bring about the destruction of Israel.
What most of us in the west would really, really, really like is a third option. But folks much smarter than I have been looking for that for about 60 years.
I can see what you're saying but I believe this too oversimplified to be accurate. When you say Israel is willing to do things, it is willing to have peace according to its conditions. Let me explain. Take for example the war between Lebanon and Israel. Israel is willing to make peace with Lebanon on the condition that the Palestinians in Lebanon give up on their right of return. Lebanon is also willing to have peace with Israel, on the condition that the refugees retain their right of return. Either party willing to give up on their demand will seal the deal. Will Israel accept the Palestinians back in return for peace? No they won't. Settling the Palestinians in Lebanon is roughly equal to wiping Lebanon off the map. Why should we accept? The question is: Why is Israel supported in this issue but not Lebanon? Why is everything being done to settle the Palestinians in Lebanon whereas no one requests any compromise from Israel in this matter? Would Israel choose a peace that requires genuine compromise, or would it prefer war if peace came at its expenses? I am willing to bet they would prefer war, same as everyone else. They are not after peace, they are after peace 100% their way, else it's war. You can only have such peace if you have destroyed your enemies to the point where they can't negotiate anything, which is something that hasn't happened yet. Hence it's war, except with countries where dictator regimes were set and supported to give them peace. This worked so well that the US has been trying to do the same in Lebanon for two years by supporting the Siniora government in return for everything they want. Since in Lebanon, dictatorships cannot work even if supported by the whole world, unless the US changes its policy soon, we are headed for disaster. So you see, no matter how you put it, whether Israel, Lebanon or the Arabs, some things you can give up in return for peace, and others you can't because the cost is too high. The peace being offered now is too expensive for the Arabs. Make the same offer to Israel and their reply will be the same. The problem in the ME, as Kissinger termed it, is that of an additional people. This has to be solved and no one is willing to move and give up their claim to the land in return for peace. This is not only the stance of the Arabs, but also of the Israelis. The conflict howevre, is only shown from the Israeli point of view. |
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Middle East forum 101 I committed the cardinal sin in the ME region of actually trying to post something relevant to the thread topic. |
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gomper7
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« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2007, 07:19:05 AM » |
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Cedar, You are correct of course, there are peripheral issues where compromise is possible, but then you get down to the core issues and neither side is willing to compromise. You view the refusal of return for the refugees as a coup de grace to Lebanon, and Isreal sees a return of them as a defacto coup de grace to them. Makes it really tough to get someone to compromise. As I said, people smarter than I have been working on this for decades. Personally, I would prefer the west put more pressure on Israel to be more even handed, but there is not much political will for that, and as long as Israel can play the victim (which it gets tons of help doing with the constant rocket attacks and less constant suicide bombings) there never will be. As to this bit with this Israeli Daniel Sharon, I don't get that. I can understand he was arrested, and so he would be bitter and angry toward Lebanon, but calling Berut the "Paris of the Middle East", that is just down right mean.  |
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CedarPride
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« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2007, 08:48:24 AM » |
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Cedar,
You are correct of course, there are peripheral issues where compromise is possible, but then you get down to the core issues and neither side is willing to compromise. You view the refusal of return for the refugees as a coup de grace to Lebanon, and Isreal sees a return of them as a defacto coup de grace to them. Makes it really tough to get someone to compromise. As I said, people smarter than I have been working on this for decades. The problem is we are being pressured into being the ones to cave and this for the past 30 years. Even today, this is the real reason for the support given by the Bush administration to the Siniora government. The Sunnis are not against the settlement of Sunni Palestinians Hizbullah and the Christians are which is creating internal conflict within Lebanon that may get out of hand. So you see now? US policy towards Lebanon is actually by being a party to the conflict once again, not a referee. Personally, I would prefer the west put more pressure on Israel to be more even handed, but there is not much political will for that, and as long as Israel can play the victim (which it gets tons of help doing with the constant rocket attacks and less constant suicide bombings) there never will be. All use the means available to them. This is not restricted to Israel. Last year, Hizbullah played the victim card well and the Israelis went nuts as this was their territory  As to this bit with this Israeli Daniel Sharon, I don't get that. I can understand he was arrested, and so he would be bitter and angry toward Lebanon, but calling Berut the "Paris of the Middle East", that is just down right mean. Yeah...How dare he?   |
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Middle East forum 101 I committed the cardinal sin in the ME region of actually trying to post something relevant to the thread topic. |
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14-years-old-jane
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« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2007, 11:32:10 AM » |
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Please Jane refrain from commenting on a country you have never visited. We both live in countries at war, but we seem to be taking it much much better than you you can lie to Americans who wouldn't even check what you blab in here... Sharon is German citizen and Germans were those who pressed your arse to release some gay who got arrested just for having Israeli relatives... sure you taking it better,,, i would say you taking more of it... and it will remain the same,,, this is why most of your posts sound like fockin cry,,, this ain't soap opera,,, now shush ,,, |
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Each time homosexuals make sex, 1-2 babies die and 1-2 constipations are solved ...
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CedarPride
Full Member
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Posts: 141
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« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2007, 11:46:34 AM » |
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Please Jane refrain from commenting on a country you have never visited. We both live in countries at war, but we seem to be taking it much much better than you you can lie to Americans who wouldn't even check what you blab in here... Sharon is German citizen and Germans were those who pressed your arse to release some gay who got arrested just for having Israeli relatives... sure you taking it better,,, i would say you taking more of it... and it will remain the same,,, this is why most of your posts sound like fockin cry,,, this ain't soap opera,,, now shush ,,, Soooo...this is how it works, eh? Israeli when it suits you, European when it doesn't? Why are you so upset? Aren't most of you Europeans who happened to have some Jew in the family tree? Besides, the point is, he is NOT Lebanese and he speaks more fondly of Lebanon than I do. So...you shush. Jealousy is a bad trait. You will have a country people will like someday too...that is if you don't give up and leave  |
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Middle East forum 101 I committed the cardinal sin in the ME region of actually trying to post something relevant to the thread topic. |
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14-years-old-jane
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« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2007, 12:21:45 PM » |
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lol,,, you are sad,,,
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Each time homosexuals make sex, 1-2 babies die and 1-2 constipations are solved ...
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Ali*
Newbie
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B7ebbak ya Lebnan!
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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2007, 09:13:39 AM » |
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lol,,, you are sad,,,
you are too young to be on a political forum  cedar how u been... and nice layout guys very nice new forum |
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14-years-old-jane
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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2007, 10:26:19 AM » |
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and you are too Arab
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Each time homosexuals make sex, 1-2 babies die and 1-2 constipations are solved ...
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machioveli
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« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2007, 11:09:31 AM » |
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The exchange is taking place as I write this post, however, it is not the two Israeli soldiers captured last year, nor Samir Kuntar. Israel and Lebanon to exchange prisonersNAQURA, Lebanon (AFP) — Israel and Lebanon were set to carry out a prisoner swap on Monday, with the Jewish state to hand over the bodies of two Hezbollah fighters and a prisoner in exchange for the remains of an Israeli man, a security source told AFP.
"An exchange of bodies and a prisoner swap could take place this afternoon at the Naqura crossing betweeen Israel and Lebanon," said the source, who did not wish to be identified.
He said the two Hezbollah fighters died during the 34-day war last summer between the Shiite militant group and Israel in Lebanon.
The dead Israeli man was an Ethiopan immigrant who drowned in Israel in 2005 and whose body was swept north toward the Lebanese coast, where it was recovered by Hezbollah, the source said.
Igor Ramzoni, head of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in south Lebanon, arrived in a convoy of three cars at the Naqura crossing in late afternoon and said he was waiting for the all clear on the prisoner swap.
"We are waiting for the green light before we intervene," he told AFP.
There had been hopes that the prisoner swap would include two Israeli servicemen, Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser, whose kidnapping in July 2006 triggered last year's war between Israel and Hezbollah. I tried to explain many times how the prisoner exchange(and bodies) is the only way to free people or recover the dead bodies on both sides of the border, how it has always been the case and probably always will be until a certain agreement is reached to free all prisoners on both sides. In this article there is a summary of the history of such operations. On January 29, 2004, Israel freed nearly 450 prisoners, most of them Palestinians and Arabs, in exchange for an Israeli businessman, Elhanan Tannenbaum, and the bodies of three soldiers.
The exchange was brokered by German intelligence chief Ernst Uhrlau.
As part of the swap, Israel agreed to free Lebanese prisoner Samir Kantar at a later date in return for information on the fate of Arad.
The abduction of the soldiers last year was to exchange them with 3 prisoners, one of them is Kantar. Personally I couldn’t care less about Kantar, but I can’t keep wondering which price was the heaviest: releasing him for the two prisoners, or waging a war that killed around 1500 on both sides and cost millions of dollars? Nasrallah said from the start that Hizbullah abducted the soldiers specifically for an exchange of prisoners and not as an act of war, based on precedence. They did the same thing and expected the same result. We are witnessing today another example of such procedure. My debating always was why suddenly Israel decided to wage a full-fledge war last year for a procedure that has been going on for decades? And why they are accepting to swap prisoners today? When will Arab countries in that region stop blaming Israel and start taking responsibility for their own actions. The war wasn't started by Israel, if you keep poking a cornered dog with a stick he will eventually attack you. The earlier prison swap only let 450 thugs loose to run a mock some probably took part in provoking last years conflict. Sadly, its a never ending game, because people in that region do not know how to truly live in peace. |
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Ali*
Newbie
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B7ebbak ya Lebnan!
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« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2007, 12:08:08 AM » |
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When will Arab countries in that region stop blaming Israel and start taking responsibility for their own actions. The war wasn't started by Israel, if you keep poking a cornered dog with a stick he will eventually attack you. The earlier prison swap only let 450 thugs loose to run a mock some probably took part in provoking last years conflict. Sadly, its a never ending game, because people in that region do not know how to truly live in peace.
When will israel stop acting like a terrorist state so can other neighbouring countries stop considering it as a threat?? also 450 thugs??? maybe... but what about more than 28,000 Palestinians who have been incarcerated in prisons or prisoner camps in israel and held without trials??? http://www.fidh.org/article.php3?id_article=1894and you are too Arab
you are too jew |
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2007, 01:55:07 PM » |
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Personally I couldn’t care less about Kantar, but I can’t keep wondering which price was the heaviest: releasing him for the two prisoners, or waging a war that killed around 1500 on both sides and cost millions of dollars? Cedar,Personaly, I don't care for the two Israeli Soldiers, but what price was the heaviest? Realeasing these two ground soldiers or thousands of lebanese (most of them Hezbullah's supporters)deaths, billions dollars of damages, half of Labanon devastated and over 600 Hezbulla soldiers dead? Who made the worse calculation? Seruousely, Do you realy think Israel will accept kidnaping-for-prisoner-swap forever? Yes, that can work, one, two, ten, twenty times. But it never works everytime. I'm not saying Israel's reaction was a good one. Just saying that abducting soldiers triggers either a prisoner swap or a military response. Why you and Hezbullah (or should I say "Hezbullah and you"?) thought there can be only prisoner swaps? What was bad was not that the response was military: That's normal by any standard. But the way the military response was handled. |
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!)  |
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