IAP Political Forum
December 01, 2008, 09:01:52 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Welcome to the new "IAP 2.0" -- please re-register before continuing to post.
 
   Home   Blog Forum   Help Search Chat Login Register  
Digg This!
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Baldar's belief system  (Read 737 times)
Baldar
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +65/-65
Posts: 528



View Profile
« on: October 22, 2007, 11:32:28 AM »

I have often been asked to identify what it is I believe in.  Like a scientist searching for some valuation or experiment, I have come to a certain criteria, or methodology if you will, of what it is that I search for and how I search.  While I adhere to this methodology strongly and make every attempt to live by it, it has left more than a few people questioning me.  I have been accused by some of he little minds of cowardice because I am not a Christian or because I am not Islamic, or even because I am not making  choice (as if a choice must be made), because I am still attempting to seek and learn the truth.  That does not make me agnostic, since I do believe there is a god, but rather it makes we me a searcher for some greater truth that will allow me the “eureka” moment.  So I discuss belief systems with many different people with different points of view (including some very intelligent atheists who have chosen not to post on this board because of the reather stupid ones that keep posting here.  I give the holders of belief systems the respect they deserve as long as they extol their own system without denigrating others.  If you really believe that your system is superior, there is no need to undermine the beliefs of others through insults and pettiness, the superiority will make itself known and plain to those who review it, along with your ability to articulate that belief system.

When you insult other belief systems, you have shown that you cannot speak well of your views, that you do not know how to present your belief system in an appealing way.  You are in effect forced to denigrate other systems due to your own feelings of inadequacy towards your belief system, or are forced to do so due to your own ignorance, not only of your belief system, but also of your ability to verbalize that philosophy.  I have been the target of some because I defend Islam, the target of others because I defend other ideas that belief systems that aren’t popular, and of course the target of others because I defend Christianity.  Now why do I do that?

I generally follow four rules where belief systems are concerned.

1-When I want to learn of a belief system, I don’t ask the people who are against it.  I don’t ask the people who have anger towards it.  I ask adherents.  They have caught their “vision” and they believe in what they say, so I attempt to hear what they have to say, to understand what the appeal is to them.

2-I seek to make fair comparisons.  It is grossly unfair to compare Usama bin Ladin to Mother Theresa, if you have thugs on one side, you should compare them to the thugs on the other side.  If you have saints on one side, it is only fair to compare them to the saint like on the other side.

3-I want only to know those things which enhance the belief system, not those things which detract from other belief systems.

4-Finally, if a system has been around for a long time, there is bound to be some truth to it.  Some ideal which makes it strong and resilient.  So I seek what might be called "holy envy" (as one professor I know puts it).  It is when here is something about that philosphy or system of thought that you wish you could inculcate in your own life.

It is one reason I have a great deal of respect for many belief systems, and very little respect for the little minds that cannot even begin to tell us why their system is good, and the constantly harp on why the systems of others are evil.  I reject such dogma.
Logged
Patton
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +105/-139
Posts: 1,826



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2007, 11:46:04 AM »

Threads like this leave one open to severe criticism.

If this turns into a flame-fest it will be promptly Infernoed at worst, Lobby at best.
Logged

Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood

-George S. Patton
IamMe
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +39/-126
Posts: 1,271



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2007, 11:51:47 AM »

I have often been asked to identify what it is I believe in.  Like a scientist searching for some valuation or experiment, I have come to a certain criteria, or methodology if you will, of what it is that I search for and how I search.  While I adhere to this methodology strongly and make every attempt to live by it, it has left more than a few people questioning me.  I have been accused by some of he little minds of cowardice because I am not a Christian or because I am not Islamic, or even because I am not making  choice (as if a choice must be made), because I am still attempting to seek and learn the truth.  That does not make me agnostic, since I do believe there is a god, but rather it makes we me a searcher for some greater truth that will allow me the “eureka” moment.  So I discuss belief systems with many different people with different points of view (including some very intelligent atheists who have chosen not to post on this board because of the reather stupid ones that keep posting here.  I give the holders of belief systems the respect they deserve as long as they extol their own system without denigrating others.  If you really believe that your system is superior, there is no need to undermine the beliefs of others through insults and pettiness, the superiority will make itself known and plain to those who review it, along with your ability to articulate that belief system.

When you insult other belief systems, you have shown that you cannot speak well of your views, that you do not know how to present your belief system in an appealing way.  You are in effect forced to denigrate other systems due to your own feelings of inadequacy towards your belief system, or are forced to do so due to your own ignorance, not only of your belief system, but also of your ability to verbalize that philosophy.  I have been the target of some because I defend Islam, the target of others because I defend other ideas that belief systems that aren’t popular, and of course the target of others because I defend Christianity.  Now why do I do that?

Nonsense. Atheism requires other belief systems to be untrue by definition. It is not possible to defend atheism without attacking the notion of God.
[/quote]

Quote
I generally follow four rules where belief systems are concerned.

1-When I want to learn of a belief system, I don’t ask the people who are against it.  I don’t ask the people who have anger towards it.  I ask adherents.  They have caught their “vision” and they believe in what they say, so I attempt to hear what they have to say, to understand what the appeal is to them.

That way you only get one side.

Quote
2-I seek to make fair comparisons.  It is grossly unfair to compare Usama bin Ladin to Mother Theresa, if you have thugs on one side, you should compare them to the thugs on the other side.  If you have saints on one side, it is only fair to compare them to the saint like on the other side.

Or just compare the doctrines themselves.

Quote
3-I want only to know those things which enhance the belief system, not those things which detract from other belief systems.

Why?

Quote
4-Finally, if a system has been around for a long time, there is bound to be some truth to it.

Argument from Antiquity.

Quote
Some ideal which makes it strong and resilient.

This just means it's a good meme - not that it's true.

Quote
It is one reason I have a great deal of respect for many belief systems, and very little respect for the little minds that cannot even begin to tell us why their system is good, and the constantly harp on why the systems of others are evil.  I reject such dogma.


It's interesting that even when extolling the virtues of your own belief system you are still throwing personal attacks at others.
Logged

\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell

If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
Baldar
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +65/-65
Posts: 528



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2007, 12:01:33 PM »

Civil differences are better than the Usama bin Ladin approach of "your beliefs are wrong, therefore stupid or evil"

The comparision is telling.

As to atheist belief systems, there are different atheist belief systems even if you cannot account for it.

Some are wholly materialistic in which there is no god, no spirit, no unseen thing.  Others belief there might be a spirit of some sort, but no god, simply the continued existence in another form.  Others believe our essence becomes part of the universe, but with no god attached to the action.

I am surpised self proclaimed atheists don't know about these different philosophies in their own belief systems.
Logged
Callum
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +48/-164
Posts: 438


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2007, 12:10:58 PM »

I generally follow four rules where belief systems are concerned.

1-When I want to learn of a belief system, I don’t ask the people who are against it.  I don’t ask the people who have anger towards it.  I ask adherents.  They have caught their “vision” and they believe in what they say, so I attempt to hear what they have to say, to understand what the appeal is to them.

2-I seek to make fair comparisons.  It is grossly unfair to compare Usama bin Ladin to Mother Theresa, if you have thugs on one side, you should compare them to the thugs on the other side.  If you have saints on one side, it is only fair to compare them to the saint like on the other side.

3-I want only to know those things which enhance the belief system, not those things which detract from other belief systems.

4-Finally, if a system has been around for a long time, there is bound to be some truth to it.  Some ideal which makes it strong and resilient.  So I seek what might be called "holy envy" (as one professor I know puts it).  It is when here is something about that philosphy or system of thought that you wish you could inculcate in your own life.

It is one reason I have a great deal of respect for many belief systems, and very little respect for the little minds that cannot even begin to tell us why their system is good, and the constantly harp on why the systems of others are evil.  I reject such dogma.


With all respect due to one who is a searcher (and I guess that it is an essential element of being human that we feed our epistemic hunger)....

1. Your conception of 'a belief system' is unduly limited by your apparent presuppositions.  You only seem to consider those based around a belief in a god.  You only seem to consider those which base an ethic on that god.  You seem to be oblivious to the fact that neither are necessary to 'a belief system'. You seem to think of complete  monolithic belief systems; few are, most have a myriad fine distinctions amongst sects and idividual adherents. (Please note I am saying 'seem').  You might wish to consult people who do not share your basic views, rather than attack them as fools and morons.

2.  Why compare as such?  Certainly you can compare your judgements of the theories (often the contents are incommensurable), but why compare adherents at all?  

3.  Some systems either actively or passively detractt from others (think of the jihad theme, or judaism's exclusivity).

4.Conservatism is not a sensible permanent view.  The persistence of an idea may not have anything to do with its 'truth' (what do you mean by that in this context?).  Polytheism has been around much longer than mono.  Does this mean you believe it has a valid core... I doubt it, given your 'givens'.  

You reject 'little minds' that cannot say why their system is good, and concentrate on why others are bad.  Yet point 3 of your methodology is to 'make comparisons'.  Don't forget that some movements (religious, political, artistic - all belief systems) are founded on the rejection of what went before, and usually they see it as being for a good reason.

I mean these criticisms in good faith.  I hope you can come to a more stable view of what you see as your core beliefs.
Logged
Baldar
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +65/-65
Posts: 528



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2007, 12:15:29 PM »

I suggest you read more carefully.  God has nothing to do with belief systems.  It appears to be YOUR presupposition, not mine.
Logged
Philosofear
Jr. Member
**

Karma: +10/-10
Posts: 65


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2007, 12:20:47 PM »

I suggest you read more carefully.  God has nothing to do with belief systems.  It appears to be YOUR presupposition, not mine.

True, though you did make it appear that way though by mentioning christians, muslims, and atheists. Would I be wrong if I said that most of your beliefs are based around God from the perspective of the people of this forum?
Logged
Callum
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +48/-164
Posts: 438


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2007, 12:22:31 PM »

I suggest you read more carefully.  God has nothing to do with belief systems.  It appears to be YOUR presupposition, not mine.

I even drew your attention to the use of 'seems'.   If you feel that I have misunderstood your views, I would be pleased to see your clarification.  But please don't just walk away with the usual statements or insinuations of stupidity.
Logged
Baldar
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +65/-65
Posts: 528



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2007, 12:42:07 PM »

It is clarified, was clarified, you simply reduce your arguments to navel contemplation, I have little respect for people who love to get caught up in the minutae and nauseatingly miss the big picture.  They tend to be the whiners in any group.

"Seems" is not an escape when you deconstruct and take one portion out of context in order to whine about something.
Logged
Callum
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +48/-164
Posts: 438


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2007, 01:03:15 PM »

It is clarified, was clarified, you simply reduce your arguments to navel contemplation, I have little respect for people who love to get caught up in the minutae and nauseatingly miss the big picture.  They tend to be the whiners in any group.

"Seems" is not an escape when you deconstruct and take one portion out of context in order to whine about something.

Allow me to quote, with a small change or two....

"When you insult other {people}, you have shown that you cannot speak well of your views, that you do not know how to present your belief system in an appealing way.  You are in effect forced to denigrate other {people} due to your own feelings of inadequacy ... or are forced to do so due to your own ignorance, not only of your belief systems but also of your ability to verbalize that philosophy"
Logged
IamMe
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +39/-126
Posts: 1,271



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2007, 01:18:06 PM »

It is clarified, was clarified, you simply reduce your arguments to navel contemplation, I have little respect for people who love to get caught up in the minutae and nauseatingly miss the big picture.  They tend to be the whiners in any group.

"Seems" is not an escape when you deconstruct and take one portion out of context in order to whine about something.

Allow me to quote, with a small change or two....

"When you insult other {people}, you have shown that you cannot speak well of your views, that you do not know how to present your belief system in an appealing way.  You are in effect forced to denigrate other {people} due to your own feelings of inadequacy ... or are forced to do so due to your own ignorance, not only of your belief systems but also of your ability to verbalize that philosophy"

Applauded.
Logged

\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell

If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
zukiphile
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +92/-75
Posts: 294


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2007, 02:12:05 PM »

1. Your conception of 'a belief system' is unduly limited by your apparent presuppositions.
***
I mean these criticisms in good faith.  I hope you can come to a more stable view of what you see as your core beliefs.

I suggest you read more carefully.  God has nothing to do with belief systems.  It appears to be YOUR presupposition, not mine.

I even drew your attention to the use of 'seems'.   If you feel that I have misunderstood your views, I would be pleased to see your clarification.  But please don't just walk away with the usual statements or insinuations of stupidity.

How little self-awareness is demonstrated in having at once offered an observation of presupposition as a criticism made in good faith, then identified the very same observation in return as "the usual statements or insinuations of stupidity"?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 02:14:29 PM by zukiphile » Logged

The Genius
Shoes and socks removed,
Ahk tries to count syllables
But can\'t write haiku.

\\"...fuck off dickless.\\"  -Ahkenaten

Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.
Technocrat
Full Member
***

Karma: +27/-149
Posts: 149


Soviet Technate


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2007, 02:21:01 PM »

You committed an error in your essay. Atheism isn't a belief system. It's a lack-of-belief system.
Logged

In Soviet Tetris blocks drop you!
Baldar
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +65/-65
Posts: 528



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2007, 02:48:31 PM »

It is clarified, was clarified, you simply reduce your arguments to navel contemplation, I have little respect for people who love to get caught up in the minutae and nauseatingly miss the big picture.  They tend to be the whiners in any group.

"Seems" is not an escape when you deconstruct and take one portion out of context in order to whine about something.

Allow me to quote, with a small change or two....

"When you insult other {people}, you have shown that you cannot speak well of your views, that you do not know how to present your belief system in an appealing way.  You are in effect forced to denigrate other {people} due to your own feelings of inadequacy ... or are forced to do so due to your own ignorance, not only of your belief systems but also of your ability to verbalize that philosophy"

No, belief systems deserve some level of respect, the bigots who take various belief systems and attempt to twist them into attacks deserver none.   But then when you attempt to minimize respecting (and actually argue for bigoted views) one is not surprised and your defense of those who actually attack people.

I have presented how I view belief systems.  You of course say such toleration is all wrong.  I am sure you would be first to lead the book burning sections.
Logged
Baldar
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +65/-65
Posts: 528



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2007, 02:50:50 PM »

You committed an error in your essay. Atheism isn't a belief system. It's a lack-of-belief system.

Are you sure?

Quote
As to atheist belief systems, there are different atheist belief systems even if you cannot account for it.

Some are wholly materialistic in which there is no god, no spirit, no unseen thing.  Others belief there might be a spirit of some sort, but no god, simply the continued existence in another form.  Others believe our essence becomes part of the universe, but with no god attached to the action.

I am surpised self proclaimed atheists don't know about these different philosophies in their own belief systems.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.4 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC
Joomla Bridge by JoomlaHacks.com
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.105 seconds with 27 queries.