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Author Topic: The connection between Eugenics and Darwinism is unavoidable  (Read 3016 times)
Baldar
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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2007, 04:52:45 PM »

Is man a natural being?  Darwin would state as much.  Therefore the natural selection that occurs in humanity (or hamanities environment also called society), ie eugenics, does indeed play a pivotal role in societal natural selection, since man reacts to his environment just as animals do (on a more complex, but still darwinian approach).
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Philosofear
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« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2007, 05:08:19 PM »

These days most Darwinists are very reluctant to admit to the racist and anti-Semitic history, and the anti-individual rights policies, of social Darwinism. They seem to want people to think that eugenics does not go back to Darwin, or to think that since many of Darwin’s kin were leading early eugenicists, there  is no current support for their kinds of ideas among today’s Darwinists.

Thank you, Johnjoe McFadden, a professor of genetics at the University of Surrey, for using the controversy over the views of Dr. James Watson, co-discoverer of DNA, to re-expose this reality.


A shameful history

Hitler was a vegetarian, so all vegetarians are evil!
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Baldar
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« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2007, 05:11:41 PM »

I think you have the reverse.

Eugenics, social Darwinism is indeed the ideal that the strongest group (and you can translate race) does best.  It therefore defines much of the philosophy of many racists as well as providing justification.

Vegetarianism on the other had has no such causal linkage.
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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2007, 05:18:38 PM »

Eugenics is smeared and misunderstood. It is a civilized and rational approach to the building of a more humane and intelligent society.

OswaldTheOsprey

http://www.eugenics.net/
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Urbi et Orbi
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« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2007, 05:30:47 PM »

Sure, ask the Spartans, they were big proponents of it.
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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2007, 05:37:03 PM »

Sure, ask the Spartans, they were big proponents of it.

Sure, ask George Bernard Shaw, H.G. Wells, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger. So were they.

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Urbi et Orbi
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« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2007, 05:44:43 PM »

These days most Darwinists are very reluctant to admit to the racist and anti-Semitic history, and the anti-individual rights policies, of social Darwinism. They seem to want people to think that eugenics does not go back to Darwin, or to think that since many of Darwin’s kin were leading early eugenicists, there  is no current support for their kinds of ideas among today’s Darwinists.

Thank you, Johnjoe McFadden, a professor of genetics at the University of Surrey, for using the controversy over the views of Dr. James Watson, co-discoverer of DNA, to re-expose this reality.


A shameful history

Hitler was a vegetarian, so all vegetarians are evil!

Can I assume from this you believe that eugenics is an evil concept?  Do you object to the author's claim that eugenics had its beginnings in Darwinian concepts and the followers and kin of Darwin?  If you do object, do you suggest it is purely coincidental?

Can you show me in the article where the author makes the non-sequiter construct that your analogy implies?
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2007, 06:10:31 PM »

Sure, ask the Spartans, they were big proponents of it.

Sure, ask George Bernard Shaw, H.G. Wells, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger. So were they.

OswaldTheOsprey

Yes, they were, and today they are generally considered incorrect in their support for it, though it seems to be making a comeback, particularly among Darwinian materialists.

Here is another article that raises this point. 

Human race will 'split into two different species'

Perhaps you feel eugenics might prevent this.
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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2007, 06:34:23 PM »

Sure, ask the Spartans, they were big proponents of it.

Sure, ask George Bernard Shaw, H.G. Wells, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger. So were they.

OswaldTheOsprey

Yes, they were, and today they are generally considered incorrect in their support for it, though it seems to be making a comeback, particularly among Darwinian materialists.

Here is another article that raises this point. 

Human race will 'split into two different species'

Perhaps you feel eugenics might prevent this.


Eugenics, both positive and negative, aims for a civilization that is intelligent, civilized, rational and humane. The world described in the article is one of uncontrolled breading by the stupid, the ignorant, the criminal and the greedy.

OswaldTheOsprey
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Urbi et Orbi
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« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2007, 07:37:23 PM »

Eugenics, as it is commonly understood, is not practical with Humans, and the old style was based on and used pseudo-scientific concepts. You cannot breed humans effectively in any short period of time, ethically, to get a set of characteristics or traits you want.

The concept behind eugenics in general--breeding or modifying organisms for desirable traits in a population--is sound, though. It's basically artificial selection and what we do in animal husbandry. If you do it voluntarily, you lack any sense of control, which makes it even more impractical, even though that would certainly be more ethical.

Neo-liberal eugenics, however, is something different, more practical in it's goals of bettering society, yet it's only vaguely related to Eugenics. That's more along the lines of genetic screening, gene therapy, genetic engineering. There's nothing wrong with encouraging them, but it's not going to make huge population changes quickly. It's more an individual quality of life improvement by removing or manipulating certain traits found desirable or undesirable. It just doesn't involve forced breeding.

Eugenics was an outgrowth of evolutionary thinking and applications in the 19th century by some people, but it was hijacked, again, by pseudo-scientists along the way. However, evolution is hardly to fault, and even if it were tied to it, it doesn't refute evolution one bit.
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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2007, 08:13:31 PM »

Eugenics, as it is commonly understood, is not practical with Humans, and the old style was based on and used pseudo-scientific concepts. You cannot breed humans effectively in any short period of time, ethically, to get a set of characteristics or traits you want.

The concept behind eugenics in general--breeding or modifying organisms for desirable traits in a population--is sound, though. It's basically artificial selection and what we do in animal husbandry. If you do it voluntarily, you lack any sense of control, which makes it even more impractical, even though that would certainly be more ethical.

Neo-liberal eugenics, however, is something different, more practical in it's goals of bettering society, yet it's only vaguely related to Eugenics. That's more along the lines of genetic screening, gene therapy, genetic engineering. There's nothing wrong with encouraging them, but it's not going to make huge population changes quickly. It's more an individual quality of life improvement by removing or manipulating certain traits found desirable or undesirable. It just doesn't involve forced breeding.

Eugenics was an outgrowth of evolutionary thinking and applications in the 19th century by some people, but it was hijacked, again, by pseudo-scientists along the way. However, evolution is hardly to fault, and even if it were tied to it, it doesn't refute evolution one bit.

So continue with uncontrolled breeding? You must want more inner city hellholes like the South Bronx, South Central LA, Cabrini Green, Herman Gardens, et al. Eugenics, combined with Social Fascism means a better world.

OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2007, 08:31:49 PM »

It's interesting how you assume if someone doesn't like X, then he must like y. That's a non-sequitor. The solution you propose is simply unworkable and bad. That I don't agree with your form of Eugenics doesn't mean anything other than that.

There really is no alternative to "uncontrolled" breeding, as there is no practical programme of going about doing anything by force that is also ethical. Any mass programme that prevented people from breeding would not be worth it. The suffering would be considerable, it wouldn't work in any reasonable time frame, and there's no way to effectively implement it sans a completely totalitarian regime anyway. That's unacceptable. You wouldn't want to live in the world you wish to create. We've been there once already. It's worse than the problem.

It's a non-answer to a problem. The best you can hope for is education, decreasing poverty, and voluntary methods. Poverty and education are the primary problems with cities and the urban ghetto. What do you suggest? Killing undesirable? Forcing them into sterilization? Locking them all up? Do you know how much suffering that will create? How much that will cost? You haven't thought this through.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 08:39:28 PM by Technocrat » Logged

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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2007, 08:33:34 PM »




It's a non-answer to a problem. The best you can hope for is education, decreasing poverty, and voluntary methods.


Hope for the best is all we can do?

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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2007, 08:40:57 PM »

Basically. You need to increase education, decrease poverty. Technology and medical procedures, including healthcare, must be made available to the masses so they can better themselves. Treating your population like farm animals isn't going to fix the problem, and it will likely make it worse.
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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2007, 02:39:35 AM »

Basically. You need to increase education, decrease poverty. Technology and medical procedures, including healthcare, must be made available to the masses so they can better themselves. Treating your population like farm animals isn't going to fix the problem, and it will likely make it worse.

What you suggest has been tried and has failed.

OswaldTheOsprey
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