Biker Dude
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« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2007, 06:01:02 AM » |
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No, just tired of nut bags that are so sure they are superior. I despise that smugness. so whatever. I guess if you need to feel you 'won' to feel better, then yes, you win.
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 Who will watch the watchers?A vote for McCain is a traitorous vote for the destruction of our way of life as we know it. |
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Major Zee Lee
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« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2007, 10:33:59 AM » |
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No, just tired of nut bags that are so sure they are superior. I despise that smugness. so whatever. I guess if you need to feel you 'won' to feel better, then yes, you win.
Well, don't take it bad, prolly you're paying the price of JohnL's bigotry...  On the other hand, I see libertarian as being snoby about liberty and individual, and sincerely, it grows tiresome to listen how they claim to be the only ones with a clue on the issue. I am fiercely individualistic and I am fiercely fond of my liberty, and yet don't see taxes as the ultimate offense and Government as the ultimate enemy... but misery. I guess we all agree that a degree of regulation, law, taxes and Government is needed for a society to work. Then you libertarian draw the line closer to "what is mine is mine" and others draw it closer to "equal opportunity means assured no misery". And no offence intended, but libertarianism always haves a child-like smell to it. Life is a bitch and your liberty (as is your wealth) is largely a convention sustained by the collective enterprise we call society. For most people the last time they could seriously asseverate they didn't owed anything back to society was when they were 3. Libertarianism just looks like something that could be healed with a good dose of REAL anarchy, misery and tyranny... which explains why libertarianism is largely an anglo-saxon idea. Probably there would be less libertarian if the UK or the USA had ever been privileged with a full-blown conquest by a superior power, an experience that helps valor liberty in its right price much more than the experience of never have lost it. But, that would be another story... and probably belonging to P&R. |
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Do not take life too seriously; nobody lives to tell.
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gommi
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« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2007, 01:51:41 PM » |
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I am fiercely individualistic and I am fiercely fond of my liberty, and yet don't see taxes as the ultimate offense and Government as the ultimate enemy... but misery. A fantastic statement, Major. The government, if responsible, is able to maximize security and happiness for individuals. One prerequisite of course is democracy and basic social freedoms, which Western society already enjoys. |
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HumanBeast
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« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2007, 01:36:08 PM » |
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There's libertarian leftism and libertarian rightism, according to PoliticalCompass.org. Here is a diagram of where all the major European countries stand. As for me? I'm with Sweden. |
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Wiglaf
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« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2008, 01:19:24 AM » |
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Matty, there are different kinds of libertarians. The things you speak of are more an anarcho-capitalist variety of libertarianism, one which doesn't appeal to me as much as libertarian socialism. I don't really consider myself a libertarian socialist (or a libertarian or an anarcho-capitalist for that matter), but I do agree with many of the principles of libertarian socialism. I like the ideas of dismantling illegitimate authority, a high degree of worker control, and to a large degree decentralizing power. I'm much closer to that than I am to the anarcho-capitalist variety but overall I think you bring up a good point.
The libertarians you speak express their disdain for regulation more in the economic sphere, and overall I think too much lack of regulation (or corruption of regulation more often) can lead to private tyranny.
I'm more inclined to see excessive government control of social issues as more unnecessary and dangerous. I would consider myself a skeptic that leans toward libertarianism when it comes to regulation of business. The arguments and ideas I see as very relevant from the economic form of libertarianism are the law of unintended consequences and capture theory. Regulation isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does more harm than good if the industry under regulation manages to control the regulation.
I'm not familiar with the Libertarian party's platform on most issues, but there are libertarian lines of thinking that address some of the issues you speak of. Personally, I think taxing pollution at a rate that both reflects the negative externality created by the polluter, and encourages companies not to pollute at inefficient levels is the way to go. By simply passing regulations, you leave too much room for industry to control the oversight, as well as further pave the way for state tyranny.
I'm not an expert on various varieties of anarchism and libertarianism, so I'll leave it to others to quibble the finer points of those issues. However, I agree with much of what you said about business regulation. Leaving the workers "free" to the mercies of businesses which can't reasonably be trusted to be beneficent is tyranny too. One only needs to look at the perverse politics of company towns of the Gilded Age in America to see that. |
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« Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 01:26:21 AM by Wiglaf »
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. . . sometimes it seems that one has to lean into the wind to stand straight.
James Welch Winter in the Blood
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,no law, no court can even do much to save it.
Judge Learned Hand
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gommi
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« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2008, 02:31:02 PM » |
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Leaving the workers "free" to the mercies of businesses which can't reasonably be trusted to be beneficent is tyranny too. One only needs to look at the perverse politics of company towns of the Gilded Age in America to see that. America during the nineteenth century is one of the best examples of libertarianism in practice, and of course it was an age of mass exploitation and urban poverty. |
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Jericoacoara
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« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2008, 10:33:23 PM » |
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The government, if responsible, is able to maximize security and happiness for individuals. One prerequisite of course is democracy and basic social freedoms, which Western society already enjoys.
How can a government maximise happiness for an individual? If western society enjoys democracy and social freedoms and this is linked to happiness, why are the suicide rates in western societies so high? |
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The greatest tragedy is for a person to die with the music still within them.
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14-years-old-jane
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« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2008, 12:10:46 PM » |
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If western society enjoys democracy and social freedoms and this is linked to happiness, why are the suicide rates in western societies so high?
maybe so much joy from democracy and social freedoms make a value of life lower or maybe only developed countries with proper social democracy are able (morally and economically) to show the real suicide rates... just exclude US from the list and all will be fine |
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Each time homosexuals make sex, 1-2 babies die and 1-2 constipations are solved ...
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Abraxas
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« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2008, 08:59:59 AM » |
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How can a government maximise happiness for an individual?
If western society enjoys democracy and social freedoms and this is linked to happiness, why are the suicide rates in western societies so high? Wrong question. People don't usually kill themselves because of their governments. |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Jericoacoara
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« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2008, 01:32:17 PM » |
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How can a government maximise happiness for an individual?
If western society enjoys democracy and social freedoms and this is linked to happiness, why are the suicide rates in western societies so high? Wrong question. People don't usually kill themselves because of their governments. It was a rhetorical question to Gommi because of his previous post: The government, if responsible, is able to maximize security and happiness for individuals I mean, how can a government maximise happiness for individuals? How do they know what makes individuals happy? Would you entrust your happiness to the government? That was the thrust of my argument  |
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The greatest tragedy is for a person to die with the music still within them.
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Abraxas
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"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2008, 01:58:43 PM » |
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Ahhhhhhhh, I see. Well, I guess I was only making your point for you... You're welcome. |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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gommi
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« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2008, 04:19:03 PM » |
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I mean, how can a government maximise happiness for individuals? By providing essential services and an extensive social safety net. How do they know what makes individuals happy? Would you entrust your happiness to the government? The government is a servant of the people. Political parties are directly elected by the citizenry to implement policies that benefit the public. If people feel that the current leadership is failing to represent their interests, they can elect a new government that will. Education, healthcare, infrastructure, social security, are all services that individuals depend on throughout their lives. It is therefore the citizen's civic duty to ensure that the government continues to support these basic programs. |
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Abraxas
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« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2008, 05:33:53 PM » |
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I mean, how can a government maximise happiness for individuals? By providing essential services and an extensive social safety net. A Utopian dream... At some point what may be the right thing to do is not always the most practical. Helping the poor is reasonable... but sometimes it enables them. And then what? How do they know what makes individuals happy? Would you entrust your happiness to the government? The government is a servant of the people. Political parties are directly elected by the citizenry to implement policies that benefit the public. If people feel that the current leadership is failing to represent their interests, they can elect a new government that will. Education, healthcare, infrastructure, social security, are all services that individuals depend on throughout their lives. It is therefore the citizen's civic duty to ensure that the government continues to support these basic programs. But my parents are worried about getting there own social security checks. What about me? My generation was fucked before we even got a chance to pull the lever. |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Jericoacoara
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« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2008, 02:28:39 AM » |
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Libertarians try to make their bullshit more palatable by tauting the freedom and charity principles. To hide the fact that they are greedy fuckwits who can't stand having to give up "their property" for someone else, they disguise it appealing to the notion that they will give it to charity anyway. It's an argument convenience when no such thing will happen, nor is it practical. The whole point is that they don't want to pay for other people whom they despise as leeches in the first place, so they wouldn't part with their money when they would rather buy something for themselves.
They don't give a shit, which is why they support an ideology of selfishness. They are Randian-lite. Fuck the poor people! Fuck those welfare bums!Fuck healthcare and people who don't have it. Fuck regulation, companies will, out of the goodness of their hearts, stop doing bad shit to people.
They also pose a false view of human nature as some isolated individual who is purely responsible for his own welfare, success, thus owns the "fruits of his labour" all by himself and owes society nothing.
As I said, accurately: it's the "ME ME ME ME ME! Fuck em, I got mine" philosophy. If you disagree, you are wrong or lying, period.
Well, if libretarians are like this, then people like you suffer from the "poor me" syndrome. You are so filled with envy and jealousy that you dress it up as an ideology. You spend your whole life blaming other people for your poor life choices. You are filled with so much negativity and self pity, that you are not in a postion to grab opportunities even if they did come along. You have never been self reliant in your life, always looking for other people or the government to assist you. You have never worked an honest day in your life, yet expect everyone else to provide for you, through their taxes. All in all, you are unhappy and are looking to blame it on as many people as you can, as long as its not yourself. See how easy it is, to make up ridiculous stereotypes for a particular category of people!! |
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The greatest tragedy is for a person to die with the music still within them.
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