Jesus is my pilot
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2007, 01:38:52 PM » |
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I've got lots, you just seem so certain... I wanted to make sure I understood your expert view.
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Follow me, and you will not walk in darkness. -Jesus Christ
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2007, 02:54:28 PM » |
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It would seem that Jesus either fulfilled the law thus erasing their validity, or they all are still a part of the faith.
Whenever I read scripture, it seems clear that the writers made a distinction between good moral principles and the judgments that the Israeli's were to apply for not following them. Fulfillment of law and contracts doesn't also make the moral principle not apply does it? |
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Patton
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« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2007, 06:07:06 PM » |
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IF the 10 commandments are part of Christian doctrine, which more Christians will openly accept, then so too must be Leviticus 20:13. What do you mean by "IF?" You sound uncertain. The 10 Commandments are Jewish Doctrine, are they not? Jesus either wiped clean the requirements of the Old Testament, or they still apply. Either way you cannot have one without the other and maintain Christian doctrine. So...the ONLY options are black and white? Lets take a law...say murder, OK? Commit one in Texas...commit one in California. Same crime....same sentence? Hardly. Texas...you die. California...you live. Seems to me, it is more than "black and white" The only other option is to show where Jesus tells us which passages apply.
Only to those who limit themselves to a "black and white" philosophy. |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Factinista
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« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2007, 08:06:10 AM » |
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Thats because the Bible is "black and white".
It makes the claim that it is the word of God, this is either true or it is not.
The 10 commandments and Leviticus 20:13 are similar in at least 2 ways, they are laws suposedly given to man by God and they are within the Old Testament(generally considered a part of Christianity). So logically one would asume that Leviticus 20:13 should be followed by those that believe in the Bible.
Am I wrong? If so please tell me exactly how a Christian is supposed to interpret these two "God given" moral laws.
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Patton
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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2007, 08:26:59 AM » |
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Thats because the Bible is "black and white". The "Bible" is 66 books....Old Testament="Jewish Doctrine" New Testament="Christian Doctrine" It makes the claim that it is the word of God, this is either true or it is not. When "the Lord said" or similar is written...descriptions are not necessarily the "word of God"....God did not "speak" the geneology in Numbers..... The 10 commandments and Leviticus 20:13 are similar in at least 2 ways, they are laws suposedly given to man by God and they are within the Old Testament(generally considered a part of Christianity). So logically one would asume that Leviticus 20:13 should be followed by those that believe in the Bible.
Am I wrong? If so please tell me exactly how a Christian is supposed to interpret these two "God given" moral laws. "Principles" in the Old Testament are applicable to Christianity..."History" in the Old Testament are applicable to Christianity...Every single word in the Old Testament is not, to believe so would be you do not understand the saving Grace of Christ...I tried an analogy earlier, but it apparently was ignored. Murder=Law Texas=Old testament=Leviticus=Death (Although I do not believe the Jewish faith interprets it this way anymore, I am no expert on current Jewish beliefs and practices) California=New Testament=No death The law is the same in both states (books)...punishment for violation is not. |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Technocrat
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« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2007, 10:20:13 AM » |
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It's really simple: Christians often use the Old Testament whenever they want to. Then they waffle back and forth depending on what point they want to make: OT----> NT. They cherry-pick based on convenience and situation.
Christians continually claim the Old Laws do not apply, yet why then do they consistently refer to Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Genesis, and the Ten Commandments? There is no objective criterion given for differentiation or using one over the other. If the Old Laws do not apply, as some say to avoid problems of the OT, then you cannot turn around and use them anyway whenever you want to make a point. If they do apply, you must explain a logical, objective reason why, which itself negates the silly idea that Jesus made the OT irrelevant when he fulfilled the law.
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In Soviet Tetris blocks drop you!
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Jesus is my pilot
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« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2007, 12:08:57 PM » |
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Thats because the Bible is "black and white".
It makes the claim that it is the word of God, this is either true or it is not.
The 10 commandments and Leviticus 20:13 are similar in at least 2 ways, they are laws suposedly given to man by God and they are within the Old Testament(generally considered a part of Christianity). So logically one would asume that Leviticus 20:13 should be followed by those that believe in the Bible.
Am I wrong? If so please tell me exactly how a Christian is supposed to interpret these two "God given" moral laws.
Have you read the Bible? |
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Follow me, and you will not walk in darkness. -Jesus Christ
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Factinista
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« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2007, 07:09:20 PM » |
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yea, have you?
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Factinista
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« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2007, 09:18:38 PM » |
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Would someone who is a Christian please explain how we are to differentiate between the 10 commandments and passages such as Leviticus 20:13? My reasoning is falling upon deaf ears so what is the interpretation of your version of Christianity?
HOW are Christians supposed to choose whether to follow either of these laws?
WHY is Leviticus 20:13 followed far less than the 10 commandments?
WHAT is the reason Christians (in general) try to follow the commandments and not Leviticus 20:13?
ARE both of these laws to be followed? If not how do we decide, as Christians, which to follow?
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Technocrat
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« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2007, 10:41:01 PM » |
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There is no logic behind it. It's entirely arbitrary cherry-picking and skillful shifting of goalposts whenever the situation mandates it.
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In Soviet Tetris blocks drop you!
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2007, 05:18:45 AM » |
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Would someone who is a Christian please explain how we are to differentiate between the 10 commandments and passages such as Leviticus 20:13? My reasoning is falling upon deaf ears so what is the interpretation of your version of Christianity?
HOW are Christians supposed to choose whether to follow either of these laws?
WHY is Leviticus 20:13 followed far less than the 10 commandments?
WHAT is the reason Christians (in general) try to follow the commandments and not Leviticus 20:13?
ARE both of these laws to be followed? If not how do we decide, as Christians, which to follow?
The 10 commandments are moral principles that universally apply. Leviticus 20:13 contains a moral principle and a prescribed punishment for failing to follow the principle. The principle applies universally but the social law and punishment was assigned to the Israeli people. The law applied to the state of Israel. Christians are not members of the state of Israel which ceased to exist after 70AD. Both of the moral principles apply and should be followed. Neither are "Laws" per se. The punishment does not apply to today's circumstances. |
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Technocrat
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« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2007, 10:10:28 AM » |
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Another fundamentalist tactic: when cornered about the OT, arbitrarily define laws as moral principles or come up with some other bullshit strategy to define away the problem so you can circumvent untenable situations.
The OT 10 Commandments are no less "laws" than much of the other shit in the Bible ignored. There's no clear criterion, no way to tell which is which other than you arbitrarily saying so.
And enough with the "lolz, doesn't apply to Christians, because they 0nly applied to Israel!" bullshit. The 10 Commandments only applied to Israel too, since it was part of their Covenant, just as the rest of the crap was. The 10 Commandments just sound more palatable, therefore, you want to cherry-pick it into your new religion.
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In Soviet Tetris blocks drop you!
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2007, 10:23:32 AM » |
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It is quite simple, really, laws and covenant requirements include consequences for failing to uphold the moral principle that is embodied by the law. Moral principles alone do not. Christians are expected to adopt all moral principles whether there is a legal prescription attached to it or not.
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Technocrat
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« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2007, 04:28:26 PM » |
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There are certainly consequences attached to the moral principles. You've simply plucked an unsupported random guess out of thin air as an answer. What source or explanation corroborates your definition of the theological difference?
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In Soviet Tetris blocks drop you!
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Factinista
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« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2007, 10:09:57 PM » |
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So neither the 10 commandments, or Leviticus 20:13 apply to Christians in any specific dogmatic way? They're in teh OT so they apply only to Jews? This seems reasonable.
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