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« Reply #90 on: November 20, 2007, 08:40:29 AM » |
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The utterly insane aspect about claiming that morals come from God is that it puts Morals in the hands of a brutal meglomaniacal, petty, all-powerful child.
Now, of course, the religious nut won't see that, they see god as perfect and unchanging (a unfounded assertion, btw). If that is the case, then killing unruly children is as moral today as it ever was.
I think we need a moment of silence to ponder this.
God, the source of all morality, has declared in at least 3 of the most popular religions today that stoning your child to DEATH, if he is unruly, is RIGHT. Is the right and moral thing to do. That killing an entire army - women, children and old men - and keeping the virgin girls as chattel - IS MORAL.
That killing a fig tree when it doesn't produce fruit - OUT OF SEASON - is moral. That keeping slaves IS MORAL. That beating said slaves only a little IS MORAL.
These things are in the OT and NT. and we can all agree that the Koran is a wasteland of moral values - but honestly, it is no different from other religious texts.
BTW, some people are Liberal Xians. They claim that the killing witches, gays and children is a test from God. It is put in there for people to realize that they need to search their hearts for gods message and not simply take what is said in the Bible. It is a start!
But other people apologize for it. Like a mother apologizing for her murderous son "He's a good boy! Just misunderstood!"
The modern Xian's of today need to read the Bible. They need to realize the bankruptcy of the morals in that book and need to search their hearts to understand that it is a series of papers written by anonymous people in an age that was more superstitious than the Dark Ages.
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\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
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illy
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illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing
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« Reply #91 on: November 20, 2007, 08:57:42 AM » |
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The modern Xian's of today need to read the Bible. They need to realize the bankruptcy of the morals in that book and need to search their hearts to understand that it is a series of papers written by anonymous people in an age that was more superstitious than the Dark Ages. You don't leave any room for people to interpret it themselves? There is much fault to find with the OT and NT, just as there is fault to find with pretty much any book. To claim that Christians need to do this, or need to do that is dogmatism. This same line of reasoning happens to be my problem with organized religion in general and the Catholic Church in specific. |
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening
Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him
Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him
Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it -
Rugged Man - Give it Up
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« Reply #92 on: November 20, 2007, 12:21:32 PM » |
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I am not stating it as dogmatism, I am stating it as a informal suggestion such that, if they read their Bible, they will see things that they wouldn't have been told about from the carefully crafted propaganda pieces their pastor reads to them every Sunday. I submit that there would be fewer Xians if all self-proclaimed Xian's read the Bible. I was trying to find a poll or something on how many Xians claimed to have read the bible or not, etc.... I found this gem (make sure you read the comments that follow!): Poll reveals wide difference of opinion on Earth's age among Christians
Allie Martin
OneNewsNow.com
August 24, 2007
A poll conducted by ChristiaNet.com has found that many Christians believe the Earth could be billions of years old.
The survey of approximately 800 Christians asked if the Earth was billions of years old. Forty-three percent said the Earth was less than a billion years old, and most of those said the planet was between 6,000 and 12,000 years old.
Bill Cooper, president of ChristiaNet.com, says those who believe the Earth is between 6,000 and 12,000 years old use reference points of the generations listed in the Bible to tally up the years.
The poll did find that 30 percent of Christians believed the Earth was billions of years old. Cooper says the poll also shows that Christians use different data to determine the age of the Earth and universe.
"It really depends on how you view that data," he explains. "One person can view it through carbon-dating and think things are billions of years old, but they're ignoring all the flaws in that particular process. And another person can look at it from the biblical perspective and start analyzing that scientific data and they can come up with that 6 [thousand] to 12,000 years," he says.
Cooper believes that Christians really need to look at things from a biblical perspective.
All Original Content Copyright 2006-2007 American Family News Network - All Rights Reserved Comments (43)
Gary Silverman:
I agree, Scripture must be our final authority for everything that it talks on. If you look at science you find that it agrees with Scripture. For example if you look at the rate the sun shrinks, about 5 miles/per hour presently but more when it was larger, less that 15 million years ago the sun would have been touching the earth, not enough time for the evolutionary model. If you look at the diminishing magnetic field or the distance the moon is from the earth you have no other conclusion other than the earth is quite young. For those in my generation we see that when man landed on the moon their was only about 1/4-1/2 inch of dust. Based on the rate of "Space dust" that falls, that ages the earth at about 12-15 thousand years old. The bottom line on all this is that I know of only One that was their and that is God and He said He created the earth and gave us a time line of what happened. Based on the information from the one who created the earth we have a very young earth, less than 20 thousand years and to deny that is to deny God and His Word.
Posted by Gary Silverman | August 24, 2007 7:34 AM
Posted on August 24, 2007 07:34
Vernon Doughty:
Since scientists believe in evolution, then I don't believe in scientists. The only education I need is to read God's word, the Bible. The earth is young, not old like the so called smarties say. If I had my way we would close down all the humanist colleges and only have Bible colleges. The Bible is the first, last and only book a person needs.
Posted by Vernon Doughty | August 24, 2007 9:14 AM
Posted on August 24, 2007 09:14
Clarence:
This is one of the foundational issues in Christianity and American culture today. If the biblical perspective of Genesis 1 is destroyed in Christian thought there will be significant backsliding into paganism. The evolutionary trek expressed in the idea of billions of years ignores the basic facts of the scripture like God created plants on the third day(there was light from the 1st day so this is evidence of the universal change that took place) but did not create the Sun until the the fourth day. Even if there was a break between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 we know from scripture that the universe(the curse) and the earth(flood) changed how the things functioned apart from Gods original creation which was pronounced "good"(no decay) on the sixth day. Death did not come into the physical universe until Man sinned against God.
Billions of years/Evolution has caused society to degenerate as people see themselves as no better than any other animal instead of the "image of God". Let's all work to bring back the glory to God through our knowledge of and obedience to His Word.
Posted by Clarence | August 24, 2007 9:55 AM
Posted on August 24, 2007 09:55
John Rodgers:
There couldn't have been death before Adam and Eve because the bible says that death came through sin and that Adam and Eve were the first to sin. Therefore the idea that there were billions of years of God creating through evolution (which means that many creatures would have lived and died) can't stand. We need to use bible logic in order to find the truth.
Posted by John Rodgers | August 24, 2007 10:28 AM I often get accused of arguing against Straw Men or making things up about Xians, but these are their OWN WORDS!! This is the utter ignorance that we talk about, the utter stupidity. The hatred for science and reason is all taught in the Bible. I am encouraging, as these people are - TO READ YOUR BIBLE. I have better confidence in humanity than these nitwits and believe that most people will see through crap. I don't need people to see it from my perspective, and I trust that they won't see it though these morons perspective. |
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\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
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Brian
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« Reply #93 on: November 20, 2007, 03:18:50 PM » |
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The Bible isn't meant to be taken at face value, it is a symbolic work that is supposed to be interpreted differently by many people. Nothing in the Bible can be taken into consideration in a serious argument for this reason.
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illy
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illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing
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« Reply #94 on: November 20, 2007, 04:35:18 PM » |
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I am not stating it as dogmatism, I am stating it as a informal suggestion such that, if they read their Bible, they will see things that they wouldn't have been told about from the carefully crafted propaganda pieces their pastor reads to them every Sunday.
I submit that there would be fewer Xians if all self-proclaimed Xian's read the Bible.
I was trying to find a poll or something on how many Xians claimed to have read the bible or not, etc.... I found this gem (make sure you read the comments that follow!): Poll reveals wide difference of opinion on Earth's age among Christians
Allie Martin
OneNewsNow.com
August 24, 2007
A poll conducted by ChristiaNet.com has found that many Christians believe the Earth could be billions of years old.
The survey of approximately 800 Christians asked if the Earth was billions of years old. Forty-three percent said the Earth was less than a billion years old, and most of those said the planet was between 6,000 and 12,000 years old.
Bill Cooper, president of ChristiaNet.com, says those who believe the Earth is between 6,000 and 12,000 years old use reference points of the generations listed in the Bible to tally up the years.
The poll did find that 30 percent of Christians believed the Earth was billions of years old. Cooper says the poll also shows that Christians use different data to determine the age of the Earth and universe.
"It really depends on how you view that data," he explains. "One person can view it through carbon-dating and think things are billions of years old, but they're ignoring all the flaws in that particular process. And another person can look at it from the biblical perspective and start analyzing that scientific data and they can come up with that 6 [thousand] to 12,000 years," he says.
Cooper believes that Christians really need to look at things from a biblical perspective.
All Original Content Copyright 2006-2007 American Family News Network - All Rights Reserved Comments (43)
Gary Silverman:
I agree, Scripture must be our final authority for everything that it talks on. If you look at science you find that it agrees with Scripture. For example if you look at the rate the sun shrinks, about 5 miles/per hour presently but more when it was larger, less that 15 million years ago the sun would have been touching the earth, not enough time for the evolutionary model. If you look at the diminishing magnetic field or the distance the moon is from the earth you have no other conclusion other than the earth is quite young. For those in my generation we see that when man landed on the moon their was only about 1/4-1/2 inch of dust. Based on the rate of "Space dust" that falls, that ages the earth at about 12-15 thousand years old. The bottom line on all this is that I know of only One that was their and that is God and He said He created the earth and gave us a time line of what happened. Based on the information from the one who created the earth we have a very young earth, less than 20 thousand years and to deny that is to deny God and His Word.
Posted by Gary Silverman | August 24, 2007 7:34 AM
..... My take on this is that it's irrational to take any book and follow it word for word literally. (unless we're talking about law or cell phone manuals) Maybe some people are happy where they are. When it comes to the quotes, sure they're ridiculous, but unless someone your debating with someone who made those statements, they are a straw man. I see no more need for someone who considers themselves Christian to answer for those statements than I have to answer for statements made by other people who claim to be agnostic. (quote brackets inserted to seperate illys comments from the rest of the other quotes by Patton) |
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« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 05:45:21 PM by Patton »
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening
Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him
Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him
Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it -
Rugged Man - Give it Up
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2007, 06:36:42 PM » |
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You are right, to a degree, I think.
I am playing a complicated (for me) game of addressing many facets of religious belief.
On one hand I am trying to alert people to the obvious signs of fundamentalism - most people realize this is bad and dangerous, but, honestly, I don't think people realize how pervasive it is. Over 40% of the American public have beliefs that are nigh Fundi levels (literal belief in Bible, etc.)
I am also trying to argue against more refined and "philosophical" arguments for god which are more difficult to form, especially when people don't argue with logical reasoning, but mesh a little logic, with a lot of Apologetics and religious doctrine.
I am also in the beginning stages of arguing against all religious beliefs as a monolithic whole: to argue against Xianity, for example, by using Islam beliefs. People will say "but noone believes those things!" but they Do! They believe the underlying reasoning for the things I am talking about.
For example, RF believes in the Xian religion, he accepts exactly what the crackpots in the quotes below believe, but he will argue that he doesn't use their reasoning. That some how he arrives to the same conclusion, but doesn't believe what they do.
Of course, I'll let RF speak for himself, but he has made it very clear in the past 3 years that he believes Jesus rose from the dead, was born of a virgin, was God, etc.. In a way, the nuts below have more FAITH than he does because they don't need to Reason their Faith, they just accept it.
How ironic!
Anyhow, as I have said in the past, if I'm not arguing against your position, then I'm not addressing you - I'm addressing the position and the position only.
And honestly, I would prefer to only address positions regardless of the person holding them, myself included.
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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illy
Hero Member
Karma: +106/-105
Posts: 1,067
illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing
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« Reply #96 on: November 20, 2007, 07:36:35 PM » |
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I guess I just don't see the point in arguing against it as a whole.
There are certain parts that I dislike, manifestations in policy. I think it is good to criticize policy that you find objectionable.
Most of the Christians I know actually have very good reasoning on their side in general. As far as a belief in virgin birth, or resurrection, I agree that they are unsupported ideas, and I have no logical basis to believe them. Unless someone's belief is making them act in irrational ways that negatively affect me, I just don't see the harm in it. Rational, moderate Christians tend to be the rule, not the exception. As illogical as some of the beliefs sound to me, the idea that belief in those things is an indication of lessened reasoning ability simply isn't supported by what I see everyday from the the people I know.
Regarding the bolded quote, I've seen an argument against this from within a Christian framework. Christians are directed to follow the spirit, not the letter of the law. From some viewpoints, complete reliance on the word of scripture for "everything" would be just that, would be failing to follow the spirit and instead following the letter.
Patton - Thanks for fixing it, I wasn't even aware. It can get aggravating sometimes if it gets quoted again, then you need to go and hunt through to find all the errant brackets.
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening
Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him
Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him
Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it -
Rugged Man - Give it Up
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2007, 09:02:14 PM » |
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Unfortunately this is part of the problem: Xians are told a lot of things.
For example, amny Xians are told to develop a relationship with Jesus as a friend ("I have a friend in Jesus") and to look for a calling from Jesus/God.
Unfortunately, this is not in the Bible and undermines a certain grasp of reality. Jesus is dead - he's not a guy you talk to. And people who say likewise do so in direct contradiction to the Bible. (The age of personal revelation is over. Jesus said he would know you, not the other way around.)
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #98 on: November 23, 2007, 07:59:21 AM » |
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For example, RF believes in the Xian religion, he accepts exactly what the crackpots in the quotes below believe, but he will argue that he doesn't use their reasoning. That some how he arrives to the same conclusion, but doesn't believe what they do.
Of course, I'll let RF speak for himself, You have already (and incorrectly) spoken for me! but he has made it very clear in the past 3 years that he believes Jesus rose from the dead, was born of a virgin, was God, etc.. In a way, the nuts below have more FAITH than he does because they don't need to Reason their Faith, they just accept it.
How ironic! You don't seem to even know your own mind, how can you know the mind of others? And honestly, I would prefer to only address positions regardless of the person holding them, myself included. Then why do you continually (and incorrectly, I might add) refer to me? |
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« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2007, 03:09:41 PM » |
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RF, do you or do you not believe the following?
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
IF you don't, you can stop calling yourself a Xian, and declare yourself a prophet of your own religion.
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #100 on: November 28, 2007, 06:42:01 PM » |
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RF, do you or do you not believe the following?
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
IF you don't, you can stop calling yourself a Xian, and declare yourself a prophet of your own religion.
The Christian creed is contained in the Bible as recorded by Paul. You cite the Roman Catholic Profession of Faith. They are not one and the same since the Roman Catholic Church requires an additional allegiance to the church and church doctrine. In any case you have changed your tune and committed yet another of your seemingly endless fallacies. Agreement with this creed is not in any way the same as agreement with the quotes you provided earlier. Please stop trying to speak for me. |
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« Reply #101 on: November 29, 2007, 09:01:28 AM » |
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Then you aren't a Xian. I have good information, from a source that has been decreed by your god, that if you aren't Catholic, then you aren't Xian.
Complain if you want, but I'm afraid your beef isn't with me.
Take it up with the Pope.
In the meantime, I will take the word of a man who actually studied the Bible over one who dabbles in the occasional Sunday School, regurgitate fallacious apologetics and follows his own interpretation of divinity.
I'm afraid you have a long way to go to measure up to the depth and breadth of scholarship that the CC is known for. As flawed as it is, it is more accurate to the Bible - after all, they created Xianity.
So, until you can show me otherwise, I must accept that only the Catholic Church speaks for Xianity and all other people are heretics. Do you deny that the Pope is the Vicar of Jesus? I would like to know how you can deny their revelation, but accept your own - and you haven't even studied the bible. Your revelation may be from Satan.
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« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 09:08:57 AM by daedalus 2.0 »
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\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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Patton
Global Moderator
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« Reply #102 on: December 01, 2007, 08:56:43 AM » |
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I must accept that only the Catholic Church speaks for Xianity and all other people are heretics. This very narrow view is akin to: "I must accept that only MoveOn.org speaks for Democrats and all other people aren't Democrats." or "I must accept that only Jerry Falwell speaks for Republicans and all other people aren't Republicans." |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #103 on: December 01, 2007, 09:06:41 AM » |
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I must accept that only the Catholic Church speaks for Xianity and all other people are heretics. This very narrow view is akin to: "I must accept that only MoveOn.org speaks for Democrats and all other people aren't Democrats." or "I must accept that only Jerry Falwell speaks for Republicans and all other people aren't Republicans." And to add to the absurdity of barney's fallacy is the fact that I am Catholic. The Catholic Church is the only one of which I have ever been a member. barney has a bad habit of burning his own straw man arguments. |
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« Reply #104 on: December 01, 2007, 01:26:20 PM » |
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Pat, sorry to be harsh, but the Catholic church invented Xianity and declared it the only true church: all others are heretical.
If you wish to argue against this, take it up with the Pope, and the One True Church. Otherwise, I will simply regard non-Roman Catholics as Mormon, Branch Davidian or Muslim - since they are just as valid churches based on the Bible.
BTW, the difference btw my assertion and yours is that Jerry Falwell or MoveOn don't claim to speak for the groups you mentioned. Plus, they aren't led by a person whose legitamcy is accepted to be from God Almighty. Plus, they didn't actually establish the organization that you mention (Dems or Reps).
There is one true church (RC) and the others are just Book Clubs with their own interpretation that may or may not be in line with RC doctrine. Them's the breaks for all you Prot. heretics! :-)
For RF:
The Apostles Creed:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.
So, RF, you do believe this right? You believe all of this? Even that Jesus was buried?
If you do, you are exactly the same as the people you consider Xian nuts, if not, you are not a Xian and your own prophet.
And, this creed specifically talks about the beliefs that the apostles held, which they took on faith - not reason. They ask you to do the same, correct?
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\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
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