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Author Topic: Does morality come from God? (I beg to differ)  (Read 1935 times)
Patton
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« Reply #105 on: December 01, 2007, 03:23:18 PM »

Pat, sorry to be harsh, but the Catholic church invented Xianity and declared it the only true church: all others are heretical.

Jesus "invented" Christianity...his namesake, and Romans/Catholics "invented" Catholicism. The most powerful empire on Earth during this time can "declare" anything it wishes.

Quote from: daedalus 2.0
BTW, the difference btw my assertion and yours is that Jerry Falwell or MoveOn don't claim to speak for the groups you mentioned.  Plus, they aren't led by a person whose legitamcy is accepted to be from God Almighty.

You know all too well what a religion, denomination, organization, cause, political affiliation or government "claims" to be true does not make it so.....even so...we still "associate" ourselves, whether loosely or tight, with one or more.

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« Reply #106 on: December 01, 2007, 05:45:11 PM »

I must accept that only the Catholic Church speaks for Xianity and all other people are heretics.

This very narrow view is akin to:

"I must accept that only MoveOn.org speaks for Democrats and all other people aren't Democrats."

or

"I must accept that only Jerry Falwell speaks for Republicans and all other people aren't Republicans."

Daedalus, he's got a really good point here. Centuries, and an untold amount of blood were spent breaking away from the church. To claim 'Christians' must follow the church is to ignore the considerable effort required to break away from it. 'Christians' are free to do what they please.
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« Reply #107 on: December 01, 2007, 11:56:01 PM »

I must accept that only the Catholic Church speaks for Xianity and all other people are heretics.

This very narrow view is akin to:

"I must accept that only MoveOn.org speaks for Democrats and all other people aren't Democrats."

or

"I must accept that only Jerry Falwell speaks for Republicans and all other people aren't Republicans."

Daedalus, he's got a really good point here. Centuries, and an untold amount of blood were spent breaking away from the church. To claim 'Christians' must follow the church is to ignore the considerable effort required to break away from it. 'Christians' are free to do what they please.

 I must admit I say it somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but I think an argument could be made:

1. They did set up the formal church and set the Canon. If all other Xians get their undertanding of Jesus's teachings from the Bible it is from the Roman Catholics.
2. The RC have the strongest intellectual tradition with respect to apologetics and study of the Bible. Few Prots are even close in the amount of scholarship that the RC church has put in.  Hell, I can become an ordained minister online in about a hour - and am, btw ;-))
3. If you accept that Calvin and Luther are valid, then you have trouble stopping there.  It opens the flood gates and lets any poor sod who wants to interpret the Bible.  Surely they can't all be right - and in fact, I dare say, less than 1 of them are.
4. The Pope said it - he's infallible.  If you disagree, then you are attacking a man who follows the Bible and his religion to a "T". He epitomizes Xianity as presented in the Bible and you'd be calling him a Liar, Lunatic or Lacking Lucidity.  If this is the case, why trust another person's interpretation of an ancient text that they can't read in the original language, haven't read all the external documents, haven't gone through years of study or exhibit any behavior that is "Jesus-like"?
The Baptist minister at my church became a preacher a few years ago - in his 40's because he "heard the call".  He rushed through seminary (2 years) and, lo, is now telling his congregation how to think about the Bible.
5. I do it because it stirs the waters.  Nothing brings me more joy than to see people of different religions squabble, but I get a 6' long woody seeing people from the same religion go at each other.  It's like two people arguing over whether the toothfairy has wings, or flies by magic... or both! And they actually get excited over it!  Bizarre.
6. The RC actually does hold to the doctrines that are found in the Bible more closely than the others. This is demonstrable fact.  Other denominations allow all sorts of interpretations (some Xians don't even believe in parts of the Apostles Creed).  At some point you have to cut them off.  Are Mormons Xian? Are Branch Davidians?   I avoid the whole mess and stop at the church that started it.  Since I don't care, I can be dogmatic about it. I have nothing to lose, and frankly, I am interpreting in fine Lutherian fashion.  Since those others denominations feel it fair to claim themselves as Xian, I feel it fair to claim that they aren't. ;-)
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« Reply #108 on: December 02, 2007, 06:19:07 AM »


Daedalus, he's got a really good point here. Centuries, and an untold amount of blood were spent breaking away from the church. To claim 'Christians' must follow the church is to ignore the considerable effort required to break away from it. 'Christians' are free to do what they please.

 I must admit I say it somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but I think an argument could be made:

As a Roman Catholic myself I must say your argument is "A rather poor one at that".  Let's see why.

Quote
1. They did set up the formal church and set the Canon. If all other Xians get their undertanding of Jesus's teachings from the Bible it is from the Roman Catholics.

Nonsense.  The New Testament Scripture was compiled into the current form with only a few variations from church to church by the mid second century long before there was a Roman Catholic Church.  The Roman Catholics did not agree on a formal Cannon until over 150 years later.

Quote
2. The RC have the strongest intellectual tradition with respect to apologetics and study of the Bible. Few Prots are even close in the amount of scholarship that the RC church has put in.  Hell, I can become an ordained minister online in about a hour - and am, btw ;-))

All of this is of course debatable and barney blows credibility with such silly statements.

Quote
3. If you accept that Calvin and Luther are valid, then you have trouble stopping there.  It opens the flood gates and lets any poor sod who wants to interpret the Bible.  Surely they can't all be right - and in fact, I dare say, less than 1 of them are.

Like all other humans, Calvin and Luther were correct about some things and wrong about others.  Your propensity to be incorrect and your propensity to deceive and lie here on this board is well known, so one should be cautious in accepting your claims.

Quote
4. The Pope said it - he's infallible.  If you disagree, then you are attacking a man who follows the Bible and his religion to a "T". He epitomizes Xianity as presented in the Bible and you'd be calling him a Liar, Lunatic or Lacking Lucidity.

I don't see where any present day Popes claim to be infallible.  The evidence from the distant past speaks for itself on this point. barney I find your arguments feeble.

Quote
If this is the case, why trust another person's interpretation of an ancient text that they can't read in the original language, haven't read all the external documents, haven't gone through years of study or exhibit any behavior that is "Jesus-like"?

You are making a Special Pleading that the interpretations of the Bible should not be trusted, but if then we should reject all books since it is possible to misinterpret what the author was trying to convey.  since I am sure you are not making this argument, it becomes a special pleading.

Quote
The Baptist minister at my church became a preacher a few years ago - in his 40's because he "heard the call".  He rushed through seminary (2 years) and, lo, is now telling his congregation how to think about the Bible.

That's his prerogative, just as you try to preach your worldview here on this site.

Quote
6. The RC actually does hold to the doctrines that are found in the Bible more closely than the others. This is demonstrable fact.

more closely than some others but not by a long shot the closest.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 08:54:38 AM by Reasoned Faith » Logged
Patton
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« Reply #109 on: December 02, 2007, 08:12:33 AM »

I must admit
I avoid the whole mess and stop at the church that started it.  Since I don't care, I can be dogmatic about it.

Sincerity of an open mind and willingness to hear other opinions is the hallmark of worthy and productive conversation that is likely to produce fruit.

Since you do not care and are dogmatic about it, I will refrain from expending any time or energy on a sincere reply.
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« Reply #110 on: December 02, 2007, 08:44:44 AM »

I think that would be wise because no one can challenge the claim anyhow.  How can someone claim they are more Xian than another when it is all based on subjective experience?

You will find that I will swith gears in an instant and claim that Fred Phelps and Andrea Yates are model Xians, since they interpreted the Bible correctly according to their subjective experience.

This is the problem with religion.  If, as RF tries to Speical Plead, that other books can't be trusted - so what, they don't have the divine dictum that a religious text has.

What happens is patently clear: people interpret the text based on their subjective experience - then, they claim that their interpretation is founded on an absolute, which gives them justification for their actions.

God may exist and even be an absolute source of morality, but humans are unable to determine the truth of this.  In fact, it appears that if a god exists, he made it impossible for humans to determine truth, and in the Xian Bible, if that is the real account, then God was active in keeping us ignorant.

I'm sure many may interpret this different;y, but I just read the text.  It says God forbade Eve to eat from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It says God caused confusion when people started building a city so high that they might find god (the silliest concept I've ever heard - as if god couldn't hide, but had to punish man for wanting to improve!)

In fact, this is the constant theme in the Bible: any time Man tries to improve and use his "god-given" intelligence, God smacks him down and says "stay stupid, boy! Don't even try to be like me!  Here, be like my perfect son... hahahaha... I know you can't and you will die and kill each other in trying"


btw, I might add that my interpretation is just as valid as Calvins or yours, by your own admissions.  You just PREFER your interpretation.
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Patton
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« Reply #111 on: December 02, 2007, 12:27:22 PM »

I might add that my interpretation is just as valid as Calvins or yours, by your own admissions.  You just PREFER your interpretation.

That is true with regards to anything we have the luxury of interpreting.....origins of life, origins of the universe, etc......
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood

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« Reply #112 on: December 02, 2007, 02:16:05 PM »

Well, sure, but some things seem to have less opportunity for interpretation.

For example, the BB is fairly accepted as pretty much true. Before that the Steady State universe was the going hypothesis.  But the amount of information that has been collected, and the number of predictions that have been verified makes the BB the best explanation.

Is it absolutely true? I don't know, but it would be silly for us to challenge it without conducting experiments to verify one view or another - faith has no part here.

So, there are interpretations of things that have a very narrow range of interpretation. This happens when we gain knowledge - not faith.


To get back to the OP, if one asserts that morality stems from God, they have a lot of work to do before they can make that claim.  First, they have to show that the terms are well-defined and represent reality. They have to show that the evidence for god is stronger than other options, and then somehow pin the tail on the donkey and attach morality to this being.

More and more I see in the many debates I have witnessed one of two things: the Theist makes the claim and then proceeds with standard apologetics (preaching to the choir with no attempt at making a real argument) or the Theist carefully deconstruct the idea of god to a shell of what they believe, but only address what they feel they can argue for (in essence they become atheists in order to argue for a god).

Remember, in order to assert that something has something to do with something, you must show that it is a meaningful term.  "God" is not a meaningful term.
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Patton
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« Reply #113 on: December 02, 2007, 04:52:09 PM »

Remember, in order to assert that something has something to do with something, you must show that it is a meaningful term.  "God" is not a meaningful term.

I would submit that is only true for an atheist.
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood

-George S. Patton
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« Reply #114 on: December 02, 2007, 07:52:35 PM »

I mean in a logical way. I know it subjectively means something to people.  Some people say "god" and they mean "Krishna".

The problem is in the description. I wrote a lengthy post on this problem.
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« Reply #115 on: December 03, 2007, 06:50:04 AM »

Apparently the box office was doing good business before the carpenter got into showbiz.

"16 Crucified Saviors":

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/chap16.html
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