Major Zee Lee
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« on: November 10, 2007, 12:21:28 PM » |
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Fresh news from the Iberoamerican Meeting in Chile...
At the closure of the meeting, PM Zapatero defended the honor of former PM Aznar, after Hugo Chavez repeatedly had called Mr. Aznar a "fascist". PM Zapatero replied saying that former PM Aznar had been elected democratically and all leaders demcoratically elected must be respected despite any strong disagreement. Then Hugo Chavez has began interrupting PM Zapatero, calling Me. Aznar "fascist" again and demanding Mr. Aznar to "respect" Venezuelan people. After several interruptions of Chavez to Zapatero, the King of Spain Juan Carlos I, head of state of Spain, has shout at Hugo Chavez: "Why don't you shut up!?", to the shock of the presents. Eventually, and after PM Zapatero has finished speaking, Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega has began crytizise Spain about the behavior of some Spanish corporations; at this moment, the King has left the meeting after a quick consultation with the Spanish delegation.
It's the first time that the King of Spain is seen speaking publicly in such heated terms, and the diplomatic consequences of the whole incident still are unclear. But one thing is for sure, Hugo Chavez has crossed a line he shouldn't had crossed, has made a clown of himself and has become a pain in the ass to Latin American leaders, further alienating himself.
What a boar...
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2007, 12:33:35 PM » |
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leaders speaking the language of the street. Aznar is probably called "fascist" by some public in Spain. Chavez has large popular following throughout Latin America; Aznar and Juan Carlos don't.
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2007, 03:03:40 PM » |
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No but you don't use the language of the street at a top level international meeting.
Calling Aznar, Bush or Sarkozy a "fascist" when chatting with manual worker colleagues has another meaning than when adressing the head of states of Europe.
Chavez made a goof of himself. It's not to a guy like Juan Carlos that he should teach who is a fascist and what a fascist is.
But what irritated Chavez the most was maybe the fact that Zapatero pointed out the democratic principles which elected Aznar (and himself) while Chavez precisely started the porcess for ruling against these democratic principles.
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2007, 05:48:12 PM » |
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the application of the word is inappropriate. But Spaniards themselves use it with generosity against Aznarists. U saw Jabato mentioning how "eres un facha!" became a habitual accusation of the left against the right.
I personally have an allergy for monarchy, and prefer all European royal folk to STFU. Chavez at least is an active creative force seeking to change things in his country and in the world. Juan Carlos is a decoration, albeit they say he has the conciliatory function.
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Totino
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2007, 07:58:34 PM » |
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Awesome
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 \\"Since you\\'re going to loose everything anyway when you die, you might as well get rid of it now\\" \\"All creations, including god, originate in the mind\\" |
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Findeton
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2007, 07:16:43 AM » |
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the application of the word is inappropriate. But Spaniards themselves use it with generosity against Aznarists. U saw Jabato mentioning how "eres un facha!" became a habitual accusation of the left against the right.
I personally have an allergy for monarchy, and prefer all European royal folk to STFU. Chavez at least is an active creative force seeking to change things in his country and in the world. Juan Carlos is a decoration, albeit they say he has the conciliatory function.
As spanish i can tell you that, yes, accussing someone of being "facha" is commonplace here, but that's on a street level. No political leader uses that language in public, although it's a fact that Aznar's political party was founded 30 years ago by Manuel Fraga, who served as minister for Propaganda and Tourism during Franco's dictatorship. I also dislike our monarchy (i'd like Spain to be a republic) but here, this gesture is seen by the public as a good thing, humanizing the figure of our monarch blah blah... It's interesting to note that, albeit Aznar has personally thanked Zapatero and Juan Carlos for their gesture, the secretary of Communications of Aznar's party has tried to take advantage of the situation accusing Zapatero of being fainthearted. There we can see a right wing making fool of themselves. If the spanish right keeps thinking that statements like those are gonna give them votes, we might have PSOE (Zapatero's party) in the government for the next 100 years. |
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Major Zee Lee
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Kooks not allowed in (Secret meeting is next door)
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2007, 11:14:41 AM » |
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Testing...  ...and, presto! The content of my invisible post (flagged as spam!?!?!?) has been rescued...  the application of the word is inappropriate. But Spaniards themselves use it with generosity against Aznarists. U saw Jabato mentioning how "eres un facha!" became a habitual accusation of the left against the right.
I personally have an allergy for monarchy, and prefer all European royal folk to STFU. Chavez at least is an active creative force seeking to change things in his country and in the world. Juan Carlos is a decoration, albeit they say he has the conciliatory function.
Well, there is a funny thing with monarchy in Spain. Spain is full of lip-republicans... If you say the royal family are parasites, many will cheer. It actually is "cool" amidst certain progressive circles. When it's a matter of talking, there are lots of republicans in Spain... yet then, it comes reality. You know, the type of government of Spain is written in the Constitution. And the Constitution can be ammended and so change the type of Governemnt. It says "a Constitutional Monarchy" and it can be ammended to say "a Republic". If you want Spain to become a Republic, all you got to do is to ammend the Constitution. But, alas!, that's the trouble. In order to ammend the Constitution, you need... - someone to forward the proposal of ammendment - 2/3 positive votes in the Congress of Deputies - Senate also can ask to must hold a vote. 2/3 of majority is needed too. - Once the ammendment has been approved, either 10% of the Congress or the Senate can demand that a popular referendum is hold. - The popular referendum must achieve 50%+1 votes in favor or else the ammendment will be rejected - The Chambers are disassembled and a election is called according to whatever procedure set in the ammendment process... Now, the question is: with so many lip-republicans in Spain, it should be easy to achieve all the majorities required, shouldn't it? Yet then, why the issue is not even on the table...? Rather "republicans" just complain and complain as if it was impossible to shfit the government type in Spain... well, it is possible, just you need a vast majority to do so... and such a majority does not exist. That's what lip-republicans will never agree to... and tha'ts why I always find them funny.  Personally I don't worry much about monarchy or not monarchy (they're small fish compared to the real big sharks abusing populace; they can be voted out, whereas the big sharks can't...), and I am comfortable with the idea of a "Federal Monarchy" where the King was head of state and some of the current comunities become federated states. Namely Catalonia and Euskadi to begin with; the other communities could choose wether to keep being communities or become federated states, although, being true, federation would be too much self-determination for them... |
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 11:20:53 AM by Major Zee Lee »
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Do not take life too seriously; nobody lives to tell.
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2007, 12:46:32 PM » |
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i saw some of the British ceremony when the queen ordains the government, or what they call it. All this idiotic stuff with trying to be as authentically medieval as possible. Clothes, gaits, gestures, voice intonations. A weirdly clothed dude must walk to the gates of the chamber and properly knock with his fist a proper number of times and properly demand to be let in. The ceremony takes hours and hundreds of thousands pounds from the taxpayers. And the queen declaring "MY government will provide...." Freak off, old hen, this is not YOUR government, this is the government of the British people. Or is it? This thing has to be made clear once and for all. No ambiguities left. Whose government is this and whom does it serve?
The most impossible thing is that the Brits adhere to these idiotic re-enactments of the long irrelevant fashions even in the archi-critical times. When Britain was trashed by Germany and facing existential threat in 1940, Churchill somehow found time to go to the HRM King and waste ultra-precious time for the idiotic and politically irrelevant ceremony of presenting his new government to the King and soliciting for the royal approval of the cabinet. Luckilly for the Brits, the far less ceremonic Soviets saved their ass.
People should be reminded more often of the financial costs of the theatric fantasmagorias held around their monarchs. On the other hand, monarchy can be a tourist attraction. It is something exotic, by any measure.
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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gommi
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2007, 12:48:42 PM » |
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But one thing is for sure, Hugo Chavez has crossed a line he shouldn't had crossed, has made a clown of himself and has become a pain in the ass to Latin American leaders, further alienating himself.
Alienating himself indeed. His is very outwardly passionate about his position, which is proving to be more of a political liability than a positive quality. As well, if anything Chavez reflects a Fascist leader more than the liberal democracy in Spain does. |
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Findeton
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2007, 02:29:27 PM » |
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Well, there is a funny thing with monarchy in Spain. Spain is full of lip-republicans... If you say the royal family are parasites, many will cheer. It actually is "cool" amidst certain progressive circles. When it's a matter of talking, there are lots of republicans in Spain... yet then, it comes reality. You know, the type of government of Spain is written in the Constitution. And the Constitution can be ammended and so change the type of Governemnt. It says "a Constitutional Monarchy" and it can be ammended to say "a Republic". If you want Spain to become a Republic, all you got to do is to ammend the Constitution. But, alas!, that's the trouble. In order to ammend the Constitution, you need... - someone to forward the proposal of ammendment - 2/3 positive votes in the Congress of Deputies - Senate also can ask to must hold a vote. 2/3 of majority is needed too. - Once the ammendment has been approved, either 10% of the Congress or the Senate can demand that a popular referendum is hold. - The popular referendum must achieve 50%+1 votes in favor or else the ammendment will be rejected - The Chambers are disassembled and a election is called according to whatever procedure set in the ammendment process... Now, the question is: with so many lip-republicans in Spain, it should be easy to achieve all the majorities required, shouldn't it? Yet then, why the issue is not even on the table...? Rather "republicans" just complain and complain as if it was impossible to shfit the government type in Spain... well, it is possible, just you need a vast majority to do so... and such a majority does not exist. That's what lip-republicans will never agree to... and tha'ts why I always find them funny. Personally I don't worry much about monarchy or not monarchy (they're small fish compared to the real big sharks abusing populace; they can be voted out, whereas the big sharks can't...), and I am comfortable with the idea of a "Federal Monarchy" where the King was head of state and some of the current comunities become federated states. Namely Catalonia and Euskadi to begin with; the other communities could choose wether to keep being communities or become federated states, although, being true, federation would be too much self-determination for them... I see, you don't realize why there are only "lip-republicans". In Spain, there are three mayor parties, PP and PSOE are the real big ones and IU (left) is the other one, with about 5% of the votes and 5 elected M.P.s. IU is pro-republic but the other ones are pro-monarchy. It's not that spanish people are pro-monarchy, it's more like that the big parties don't want to change the actual status-quo and that monarchy is still something mainstream media does not dare to question yet. Why? Simply put, many people still fear that if "the republican question" is brought to the mainstream, the right could try a coup or at least it could destabilize the country. Yes, many people think that our democracy is not developed enough to be able to deal with the republican question. There's a big dissociation between people and their parties, and between the street and the media, no one dares to make a reliable poll on whether we prefer a monarchy or a republic. But reality is more complex than what you might be thinking: if you ask, indeed, many people in the right-wing prefer a republic. It's even rumoured that our king has got a better relationship with PSOE than with PP. Reality is complex: many republicans are said to be 'Juancarlistas' (supporters of Juan Carlos, our actual king), because when he assumed the power after the dictatorship he guided us to our actual democracy. The bottom line is, things may change when Juan Carlos dies, as his son hasn't done any merits at all, not like Juan Carlos (don't make me defend this possition, i'm not Juancarlista, but for example my mother is). If we don't have a republic now it's because: 1.- We all know it's not a priority: the king doesn't have a real power. 2.- Many people still fear the right. My reading of this is that, eventually, we'll need to change X or Y in our constitution and it will be then when we'll deal with this issue. Hopefuly, bad sentiments amongst the right-wing towards the republic will mostly die with the old guard. Me? I wish our monarchy to die with our monarch!  |
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 02:31:27 PM by Findeton »
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Cabrini Green
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2007, 04:53:37 PM » |
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Funny.
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\"Do you really believe if we replace a bunch of corporate Republicans with a bunch of corporate Democrats, that anything meaningful is going to change? This has to stop. It\'s that simple.\"
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Major Zee Lee
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2007, 02:46:56 AM » |
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Well, Findeton, I must acknowledge that my opinion on "funny republicans" is slanted because around home those "republicans" mean ERC... And they certainly are a funny crowd...  Anyway I agree that the status of the King is largely a non-issue in a political sense, unless in the meaning of being a guarantee of the Constitution. I am of those people who feel uneasy about the possibility that the Constitution depended upon people like some individuals at the PP and their well-proven leaning towards bypassing democracy. Roughly like USA and Bushites, just USA haves what Spain lacks -tradition, experience and a true unlimited appreciation for democracy. It still is too soon to handle our constitution and our democracy solely to people who was grown under non-democracy and felt comfortable with that; people who could vote someone to "rescue" us from the "evils" of "democracy". Maybe the next generation will be able, but currently... not.  |
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Jabato
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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2007, 07:02:23 AM » |
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Peisithanatos wrote:
The application of the word is inappropriate. But Spaniards themselves use it with generosity against Aznarists. U saw Jabato mentioning how "eres un facha!" became a habitual accusation of the left against the right.
But why? Why is the left always using the word fascists to talk about the right? Because as the left has nothing to offer from an ideological point of view, they have to create an enemy, they need it in order to win an election. So every person who has a different opinion is labelled as a fascists but the main purpose is to isolated those who have to be beheaded not because they are fascists but because they have a different opinion. People who has to be surrounded with a sanitarian belt. But
Peisithanatos wrote:
I personally have an allergy for monarchy,
I personnally prefer Monarchy. Most of the spanish in History has been written under Monarchy, more than any other political system.
Peisithanatos wrote:
Chavez at least is an active creative force seeking to change things in his country and in the world.
Do you know anyone from Venezuela? Many spaniards went to Venezuela in the 60's as inmigrants. Most of them come from the Canary Islands. My uncle and auntie were among them and my cousins too. Again, do you know anyone from Venezuela?
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