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Author Topic: Immigration is a problem everywhere  (Read 1713 times)
Jericoacoara
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« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2008, 08:32:17 PM »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7085956.stm

I've been hearing complaints about Romanians for years in Italy, same goes for all Africans in Spain, and Turks in Germany.  I have friends in Italy and Spain complaining about their respective groups and say they are much worse than Mexicans, never truly understanding Americans complaints.  Heck they said if there was a way to trade immigrants they'd do it in a heart beat. 

When in Barcelona I heard numerous stories of Romanians taking over vacant apartments and leaving them destroyed before the police ever got around to catching them.   

Gex, I think it is a worldwide attitude. I have just come back from Costa Rica, and they had many problems with illegal immigrants from Nicaragua.

The problems arise because:

1)The world is a much smaller place. All countries have access to uptodate information and immigrants can research about first world countries and how to get there. Illegal people smuggling has become a profitable side business for many illegal gangs.

2)The ratio of people below the poverty line or in third world countries compared to first world countries is extremely high. Therefore the demand for first world living through immigration is extremely high and the supply through resources(available land, water, financial) etc in first world is extremely low. Hence the problem which will only get bigger in years to come.

You can't really blame the immigrants. If i was living in poverty stricken conditions or a war torn country with a wife and children, I would be doing everything I can to get out, and into a first world country to start a brand new life of safety. On the other hand you can't blame people in first world countries for trying to restrict them. As stated before, many first world countries don't have the resources to take on new immigrants. Especially ones that will take from the economy rather than put in. Its a hard situation all around. Not sure what the answer is to be honest.

I am doing the immigration thing next year, but I am doing it back to front from most. Instead of going from a third world country to a first, i am going from a first world country to a third haha.

BTW glad to see you settling in in Barcelona. How have you found it?  Have you run into zee lee yet?
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2008, 02:15:03 PM »

For africans, young and old, reaching Europe is the ultimate goal for social elevation. It's a dream for everyone.
Immigrant can be blamed for maintaining this dream: When they are in Europe they contact their family and friends in Africa to boast about their whealth, their fantastic new job, their new suit and their new Mercedes car while in reality they do live in sordid condition, live out of social assistance and take the bus like all the other color poeple. There are even professional photographers specialized in making picture of africans posing in front of a big car in a suit and tie. For them, it's normal to do so. It's their culture and a question of honnor of not telling the truth and display signs of success.
They will eventualy send 200 euros per month when they got their first crappy job to back it up.

What these poeple need to know is that they better keep their little saving to start a small business where they are and that it's no fun being dropped out in a country where you have no money and no qualification.

Sure, their country sucks and their governements are retarded. Sure goats roam the dusty streets. But Africa is by no means the hell of poverty we imagine after watching documentaries.
 
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Mingbearer
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2008, 04:56:44 PM »

The problem really isn't immigration in itself - though that really should be stopped if we what the developing world to 'develop' - the problem is the planets overpopulation.

Time for nature to play its cards, and deal us a mass plague.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2008, 12:11:26 PM »

I don't want a mass plague because I don't want to die.
But if poor poeple could make only 2 kids per couple instead of 7, that would help already.
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cauboi
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« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2008, 06:33:14 PM »

The real problem is the Globalization and where it all started: in America of the States United In Crime ,or whatever you call this babillon.
You have the example in front of you, that is where all other countries copy from.
Immigration is the New Age kind of slavery. The elites need workers to work the plantations, factories, sweat shops and so on. People born in US don't want to do the dirty jobs, or paying 7 $/hour, so don't complain about immigration next time you go to Walmarama Store.
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Jericoacoara
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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2008, 12:50:25 AM »

The real problem is the Globalization and where it all started: in America of the States United In Crime ,or whatever you call this babillon.
You have the example in front of you, that is where all other countries copy from.
Immigration is the New Age kind of slavery. The elites need workers to work the plantations, factories, sweat shops and so on. People born in US don't want to do the dirty jobs, or paying 7 $/hour, so don't complain about immigration next time you go to Walmarama Store.

For US maybe it is globalisation. For Europe it is cheap labour costs mixed with second world war guilt syndrome.

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Fredledingue
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2008, 01:48:21 PM »

Poeple from poor countries tend to move themselves to rich countries in quest of work.
The particularity of Europe is that in the end of the 60's and 70's we asked them to come as we asked Spaniard and Italians to come  afew years earlier and we though they woud be not different from the latters.
But that immigration is not causing much problem, but it created a continuous stream of immigration which we were unable to stop. Now, the new immigration that we don't need is a source of concern.

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Dormouse
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2008, 06:56:13 AM »

When it comes to immigration, it seems that the strongest opponents are those that come from places that have the least number of immigrants.

We don't seem to have any substantial 'immigration' problems in Canada (certainly nothing that could be compared with the complaints one hears coming from the USA and Europe) and Canada takes in more immigrants per year (per capita) than any other nation in the world and we've been doing it for half a century.

Indeed, Toronto is 50% non-white and 50% foreign born.  And Toronto is the one place in Canada with the least amount of 'friction' with immigrant groups.  Immigrants are celebrated in Toronto.

Northern Quebec apparently gets almost no immigration.  But in Northern Quebec, they are fighting tooth and nail against immigrants in order to 'defend their culture'.

Isn't it always the way?  Fear of the unknown?  Those who know them do not fear them.



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Artinam
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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2008, 07:13:24 AM »

I agree with Dormhouse, its mostly the fear of the other. Here in The Netherlands there have been mayor issues with immigration. Many people from mostly North Africa came to work as well as people from former Dutch colonies. Some people view this as a problem, they are unknown with their customs and ways and are sometimes indirectly discriminated.

Currently several new politicians have bandwagoned the idea that immigration is the cause of a lot of problems and mean to fix it by preventing  any migration from outside the EU.

On the other hand, migration can be a problem if migrants are not integrated into society, meaning lacking sufficient language, education or working skills. Which is the primary reason here why migrants are a bit mistrusted.

People think it is a problem but it hardly is, luckily not everyone thinks like this.
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2008, 02:45:51 PM »

-In 1 A.D. there were 200 million people world wide. Each probably made very little garbage and took up very little space.

-In 1750 A.D there were maybe 800,000,000 world wide.

-When Columbus set foot in America there were an (high) estimated 400,000 natives from the North Pole to the Rio Grande. All that space.

-In 1800 there were 1,200,000,000 world wide.

-In 1900 there were 2,900,000,000. Still when you bought a car or a lighter or a pen or a watch, well it was probably the last you needed to buy (and the only one you threw away).

-In 2000, 6,200,000,000. And each produces about 2kgs of garbage per day. Each household producing 50kgs each week. We also demand not only more square feet to live in but more public lands.



By 2050 we will have 11 billion people on the planet. That's about 10% of all the humans that have ever lived since the first written word. They will all live longer, take up more energy, more space and buy more useless crap and throw it away a few days later.

Immigration? Get used to it.

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Dormouse
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« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2008, 06:11:04 AM »

Ahkenaten, that's a good post, albeit a subtle argument.

I think the economic argument is a stronger one.

Our western economies NEED economic growth every year.  All of our systems are dependent upon growth.  Immigration supplies economic growth.  Without immigration, most western countries would be in a permanent recession for the last twenty-five years. 
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Artinam
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« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2008, 09:54:15 AM »

Doubt that a bit, yes immigration helps to fill the gaps in certain areas of work but I sincerly doubt it would mean instant recession. The current policies of having people work longer, or semi-"forcing" unemployed people to work would have just been implemented sooner. Yes it would probably have damaged the economy (mostly in Europe with an ageing population), but recession would be a to big word.
But this is a big offtopic, Didn't expect the worldpopulation to grow that large in such little time.
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Jericoacoara
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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2008, 02:03:41 PM »

Without immigration, most western countries would be in a permanent recession for the last twenty-five years. 


What type of immigration are you talking about?

Do you mean, third world refugee immigration, economic migration, spouse immigration etc?

The majority of Europeans immigration recently is from the third world under refugee status. Many of them don't speak english, have little or no skills and struggle to assimiliate into the country. Many will cost the government more than they give back, in terms of welfare benefits, medical and living concessions and other associated government costs.

I am not having a go at these refugees as I would do the same thing as them if I was in their boat. I am just questioning your statement that all immigration produces huge financial windfalls for western governments.
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cauboi
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« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2008, 05:14:50 PM »

When it comes to immigration, it seems that the strongest opponents are those that come from places that have the least number of immigrants.

We don't seem to have any substantial 'immigration' problems in Canada (certainly nothing that could be compared with the complaints one hears coming from the USA and Europe) and Canada takes in more immigrants per year (per capita) than any other nation in the world and we've been doing it for half a century.

Indeed, Toronto is 50% non-white and 50% foreign born.  And Toronto is the one place in Canada with the least amount of 'friction' with immigrant groups.  Immigrants are celebrated in Toronto.

Northern Quebec apparently gets almost no immigration.  But in Northern Quebec, they are fighting tooth and nail against immigrants in order to 'defend their culture'.

Isn't it always the way?  Fear of the unknown?  Those who know them do not fear them.


What are you talking about: immigrants are celebrated in Toronto? No, they are not, they just live in ghettos between themselves, and certain groups have problems integrating into the society. Muslims are proud to be muslims and want you to like their religion, chinese don't bother or can not speak english properly, hindus and pakis still wear their pejamas and turbans and refuse to wear helmets when driving motorcycles or when entering construction sites, shiks wear their ceremonial swords in public places.... This is a freaking circus going on and what is more scary about is that Canada is actually encouraging this.

In U.S. is "either you are one of us, like us, or you are a freakin alien" and that is all what is supposed to be, this should be the logical way. You came to this country because you didn't like your stupid birthplace, aren't you ?

In today's corporate climate, everything is changed for the sake of making that million $ in one day only, not in one week, greed is slowly killing our way of life.
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Dormouse
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« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2008, 08:12:02 AM »

What are you talking about: immigrants are celebrated in Toronto? No, they are not, they just live in ghettos between themselves, and certain groups have problems integrating into the society. Muslims are proud to be muslims and want you to like their religion, chinese don't bother or can not speak english properly, hindus and pakis still wear their pejamas and turbans and refuse to wear helmets when driving motorcycles or when entering construction sites, shiks wear their ceremonial swords in public places.... This is a freaking circus going on and what is more scary about is that Canada is actually encouraging this.
Please read your first and last sentence.  You seem confused about what you are saying.




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