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Author Topic: The Science of the Religious Experience  (Read 1159 times)
Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2007, 02:44:30 PM »

.. but I am nearly certain we cannot attribute it to materialism.
Why? What mechanisms do you know of that account for this?

One mechanism is choice.  The free will choice to remain strong and overcome ailment.  I know of this process.

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What mechanisms do you know of that make it impossible, or what supernatural mechanism do you know of that explains the function?

Material things are things that exist independent of perception.  The choice to get better is not a material entity, it does not and cannot exist independently of perception.  The choice to get better is not material and therefore cannot be attributed to materialism.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2007, 03:55:18 PM »


Material things are things that exist independent of perception.  The choice to get better is not a material entity, it does not and cannot exist independently of perception.  The choice to get better is not material and therefore cannot be attributed to materialism.


Let's follow this through.

The choice to get better (or worse) is not material, true.  But, what is it contingent upon? Choice is dependent upon options (having two logically distinct possibilites; two possibilities in which it is impossible to have both), making a decision and intelligence.  Intelligence requires a brain.  A brain requires Matter. (Unless you can show otherwise, which no one has yet.)

A rock does not choose to get better since it doen't have a brain.  Likewise, Democracy, as an immaterial entity, does not choose to get better, since it has no brain and no Matter. (It requires matter, though, in which to exist, since otherwise it would be absurd - like claiming that sound can be red).

Can you name an immaterial item that has choice? Can you name an immaterial item that isn't contingent upon Matter?

Let's say, logic? Logic, maybe as a simple proposition that "a" cannot be "a" in the same time and place. If there is no matter, then this simply doesn't apply. (One reason Theists claim that their god can be logically inconsistent since it is immaterial).

Of course, we are dealing with accualities here and logic DOES apply in our universe.

I would be interested if you can show that immmaterial items would exist if there was no Matter.  (Concepts are reliant on a mind to percieve them, a mind is reliant on matter).
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2007, 04:48:47 PM »

I don't think this lime of inquiry is going to help your argument much.


Of course, we are dealing with accualities here and logic DOES apply in our universe.

But the materialist worldview has no hope of demonstrating that logic has it's ultimate source in material either.  You are loosing ground.

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I would be interested if you can show that immmaterial items would exist if there was no Matter.  (Concepts are reliant on a mind to percieve them, a mind is reliant on matter).

You presume that consciousness requires a material brain but we have no way to prove or disprove this given current evidence. Truth of course seems not to require material.  Without material there is still truth about whatever exists or does not even if there is nothing or nobody to perceive it.  You might say, "what good is it?"  but that is a different question.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2007, 09:25:37 PM »

I presume a mind needs a brain because there is nothing to suggest otherwise. this is a valid assumption. what example can you give that would suggest otherwise?

either way, you are avoiding a critical look into your religious experience (if you've had one). what test would you conduct on yourself to discover if you are experiencing a chemical reaction or a god event?

bonus question: what gave you an idea that god would call you in the first place? its not in the bible, after all. so maybe you are taking an Eastern Mystic position on experiencing the transcendent?
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\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2007, 05:35:03 AM »

I presume a mind needs a brain because there is nothing to suggest otherwise. this is a valid assumption. what example can you give that would suggest otherwise?

either way, you are avoiding a critical look into your religious experience (if you've had one). what test would you conduct on yourself to discover if you are experiencing a chemical reaction or a god event?

bonus question: what gave you an idea that god would call you in the first place? its not in the bible, after all. so maybe you are taking an Eastern Mystic position on experiencing the transcendent?

But there are things and conditions that suggest this material world is insufficient to explain the mind and conciseness and logic and reason.

In your view reason and logic is a consequence of the mind which in your view is entirely contained by the physical brain and therefore subjeject to genetics which is in your view constantly undergoing the process of evolutionary change.  This change is the only explanation you have for the brain in the first place and therefore the mind is in the constant process of change.  By your worldview therefore anything contained by the brain is also subject to change.  There is nothing in your worldview that would fix logic and reason to be constant and universally true.  Therefore logic and reason is incoherent in your view because the laws of logic are subject to change.  Remember, Natural Selection only preserves characteristics that are advantageous at the particular time.  There is nothing in this model that constrains anything to remain constant ever.

By this example materialism is insufficient.  On the otherhand, a transcending agent who provided the laws of physics and the laws of logic and reason and morality does provide the structure to maintain these as constants.  Furthermore there is substantial evidence that such an agent exists.  Big Bang cosmology requires an extremely powerful transcending cause for this universe.  The fine tuned nature of the physical laws is evidence that this cause is precise and unimaginably intelligent.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2007, 06:34:21 AM »

like a puddle seems perfectly designed for the hole it is in.

btw, your description of materialism is flawed, which is why you don't find it convincing. a strawman, as it were.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2007, 09:05:57 PM »

Well materialism certainly is flawed and indeed that is why I don't find it convincing.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2007, 08:07:02 PM »

and u never will find it convincing as long as u construct your strawman version of it, and prefer faith over reason - which is an aspect of your material self. you have no choice to be otherwise. u are incapable of being otherwise.
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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