What is arrogant is internationalism, globalism and interventionism. Wars result and the wrong people die and the wrong people get rich. An eternal tragedy and travesty.

OswaldTheOsprey

Well I'm not in complete agreement with her either.





However...the nasty question remains in my head like a wad of gum stuck under the desk, I can't dislodge it: when was the last time someone from North America or Australia for that matter, came home to a smoking shell hole?

Perspective is everything.
Ahk

been happening for millions of years, no need to think you can change it now.

I'm tired of all this.

Fred,
Good luck saving the world....from all those who don't agree with you....from behind your computer screen

Ahk,
I may be against politicians, and politics, but I am never against soldiers. The West DOES create terror groups same as Syria and Iran or whatever and you know it. They can be created in a country where there is no military presence of the west to be their fighters by proxy, or they can be created because they can do what the regular army can't do even if militarily present. So when you arm thugs, you pretty well know beforehand that the killing and terrorizing of innocent people is a by-product of your creation and you do it anyway. Meaning, even if you think this is the ONLY way to do it, this does not remove the fact that you are STILL responsible for the death of innocent civilians by the groups you create. You KNOW they are going to use the same tactics used by your enemies (which is the reason you create them), those tactics you call terrorist.This is what I am criticizing and I gave the example of Hizbullah killing an Israeli civilian once every ten years, and the massacre of 3500 plaestinian civilians in Sabra and Shatila in less than 3 days by a pro-western militia under the watchful eyes of Israeli soldiers. No one bothered to answer as to why Hizbullah is a terrorist organization and the Lebanese forces are not. This is hypocrisy.

Terry,
I hardly understand what you posted, but here is the thing. I see the West as equal to Syria or Iran or Israel or whatever. They are all the same to me and this is not hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy to me is when you claim they are different.

And no, there is a difference between war and crimes against humanity. I have seen both. You can go to war, in a legitimate act to survive, but cold blooded murder is not tolerated not under the Geneva conventions and not under any other convention even when you are in a state of war. When these cold blooded murders are done by an Anti-western militia, it is a terrorist act. When these are done by Pro-western militias, they are a legitimate act of self-defense, that is IF anyone hears about them. How is the murder of innocent civilians by a pro-western militia a legitimate act of self-defense? Why is not labeled terrorism?

I do not expect any answers. I'm done posting in this thread.

To me, when I see Iran calling America the great evil, OR when I see America labeling Hizbullah a terrorist organization, what comes to my mind in BOTH CASES is this: It is like a prostitute teaching people about chastity.


See you all around

Ahk, I think we are all tired of this thread, so we all have some harmony let this one sink away please.  :'(

Cedar,

You are unfair on two points:

1/ That we don't call "terrorist" those who are on "our side". That's not true. First because "our side" is a very vague notion in the ME even as Israelis are concerned. Second becuase we eventualy call them "terrorist".
Those who did Shabra & Shatila were defentily and repeatedly called "terorist" and other names in the western media. I remeber this event very well. It was literaly presented as horror on Earth.

In Iraq, everybody is a terrorist as soon as it terrorises civilians. If the new tribes fighting al-qaida were realy terrorizing the population the way al-Qaida does, that  would be against the american interrests there which is to create an atmosphere of safety for the occupation.
Why? Because what is annoying for the american is not the ideology of the terrorist groups nor even their power, but the very fact that by creating unstability, they jeopardize the legitimacy of the pro-US governement. And if they do, sooner or later they will have to face US troops.

Also, There is no evidence that the new group uses terror tactics against the population. If you have such evidence, plese post them here. The fact is that the population turned against al-Qaida because they were under constant threat. The tribe sheiks don't have any reason to terrorize a population.

But even if this is the case and if the US military doesn't say anything, western human right groups, anti-war goups and the Democrats will expose the fact and eventualy call them "terrorist".
You fail to realize that the majority of poeple and politicians in the oposition in the West is against this war in iraq and would be shocked at the very idea of having troops working with terrorists. That would be a political disaster for Bush.

Maybe we have very poor understanding of the ME, but you have very poor understanding of the West.

2/ You blame us (the West) for actions that we didn't do under the pretext that they are our allies. Being our allies doesn't mean to be "the West". The sheiks in Anbar and the police in Kabul are not westerners, I told you that already.

The reality is that americans (who seems to represent the West there) have no control and no mean to repress illegal, inhuman or terrorist activities of the groups they are working with if they ever work with them.

Furthermore, once they don't attack US troops, they definetly have nothing to do with the US anymore and the inter-muslim warfare is realy none of our business. We realy have NO responsability in it anymore. If killing, torturing and terrorising each others is what they want, who are we to forbid them these pleasures?

--->
Then I must read that:

Yeah, How dare we, he?

No, Cedar, we don't see any honnor in weakening ourself. Your reaction to this (sarcastic) point is revelating. Somehow you esteem Hezbullah and similar groups for letting themeslves bombed by forces 100X superior to them. For you too, Jihadist martyrdom is a honnor, despite your christian background? Sometimes I understand why the West is not supporting you arab christian more.

Yeah Yeah Fred whatever....

I either agree with you or I am a terrorist supporter >>>> Arrogance

That's what I have been saying all along.

Keep posting Fred. You are making my point better than me.