That would be very easy to fake.

It's not that I am dead, in terms of mythical thinking. That is, small wonders do occur to me. I still have all the emotions and wonder that I had when I was a believer, the difference is that I attribute it to something different.  Instead of being certain that it is a god, or "God's creation" etc., I see it as a wonder of Nature and by that I mean that Nature is full of wonders, and we simply don't know that much about Reality.  I accept that we don't know and that making a story about it is fine, but don't expect it to be true in the end, just accept it as a possible explanation - or, simply say "I don't know" and revel in the mystery of life.

I simply see no need to take an extra leap and attribute Nature and all that mystery and wonder to a being that you have to invent properties for in order for it to be more plausible. (He's invisible, not of this universe, supernatural, unknowable, All-x, "Is what he Is", etc.)  I find that "rationalization" to be irrational for many reasons I have gone into.

People ARE hungry for answers but the Pope doesn't know more than a plumber about the afterlife, or life in general.  These cults and churches are raking in millions by giving non-answers.  They are ignorant of the truth - they have no idea if an afterlife exists or not, but will swear on Bible that they know there is and they base it on what? Faith?

I have had many discussions with people about death and dying and how atheists deal with it. Despite the longing of many Xians have that atheists, in their final hour, start blubbering and praying and, thus, Xianity somehow wins... ,it has been shown that being honest is helpful in a persons last days, and for their family. That kind words, talk of the persons life and their impact on friends and family, and the admission that we don't know if anything happens afterwards is just as soothing as the (vaccuous) promise of an afterlife - and MUCH MORE comforting than the threat of eternal torture and suffering, which I think is one of the most inhuman and immoral aspects of the Xian belief system.

Rules and order are fine, and can be achieved without religion, and without a belief in gods.  In fact, many animal species achieve this as a part of a natural settling.  Apes have quite impressive abilities to form communities in which rules are followed - though, they based it on an authoritarian model, something we have not shaken, it seems.

I was trying to make a point. And it was this:  There have been millions of claims of ghosts, the video is just yet another. All the claims have been debunked or somehow found to NOT be ghosts.  The presupposition that I should look at YET ANOTHER video to disprove ghosts becomes a farce.  If I look at this video, then the assumption is that I need to look at ALL videos and pictures, etc...  That somehow my belief must be based on an absolute knowledge of all videos and pictures, not to mention all claims of ghost sightings in all of history.

Why?  Because believers will always throw that out at you.  "You don't know everything, so how do you know John Smith didn't see a ghost in 1658?"  (Similarly: "you don't know everything, so how do you know a god doesn't exist?" Or, "how do you know Jesus didn't rise from the dead?")

Consider further. I don't know what a ghost IS. No one does because there has never been a test of one.  I could look at the video of a ghost and not know if it is a ghost.  A ghost is not an unexplained phenomena - we have a term for that: unexplained phenomena. (And most of those quickly become explained).
Is a ghost ecoplasma? Supposedly, they are spirits of the undead... hmmm... excuse me for being skeptical.

So, since I don't know what a ghost is in reality, or what it is supposed to look like, I would know if it was a ghost or an alien, or a newly discovered life form.

Perhaps it was just a reflection of something or a swarm of insects, or a fraud?


I will wait until someone claims that they have proven it is a ghost, and then look at the evidence.

I am against the mentality that I write that I am against. If there are xians out there that are reasonable and believe because it gives them a mild comfort, then I have little problem with them. I say 80% because 80% of people CLAIM to believe in God, though many often switch that, when pressed, to say that believe, but are not sure.  Which is not a belief as much as it is that they are expressing a well established meme.

It is the particular meme I have a problem with. Meme's aren't evil, but they can be, and when they rest on dogma and authoritarian fear-mongering, little good can come of it.

I am fascinated by your claim that you don't believe in the dogma of religion, but you believe in god. Where, if not from the dogma of religion, did you get the idea there was a god in the first place?  Every instance of you arriving at a belief in god is based on certain assertions and claims made by other people as fact.

I tend to agree with you. I am an optimist for humanity. I think we are a wonderful animal, full of potentials that we aren't even aware of.  I think our future rests on us understanding more about the universe and each other.
I see no value in religion, for various reasons, but I see value in mythology which religion exploits. I see that mythology should be embraced and enjoyed (this means that we should encourage Harry Potter and Saving Private Ryan and even real stories told in a way that express the mythological content.  - I have a very specific way that I approach Mythology: it is the "experience of meaning").

That is, I think its wonerful that people can get an emotional experience and learn life lessons - true life lessons - from watching Lord of the Rings, but I find it dangerous to humnity when some people feel that other people must accpet it as truth and real.

Jesus didn't rise from the dead, but the meaning of the story is very nice: that our memory in our friends and family (our "soul") lives on after us and works through the living in a way.  When that generation dies, they pass on their "soul" to the next generation which also includes a little piece of you.  It's not scientific, its just a nice way to think of humanity.  You have, in a way, a little quirk or perspective or saying, that your great-grandfather's buddy had and he passed it to your father who passed it to you. Maybe just a little cliche that he liked, but it helped form a way of looking at the world.

There are many examples as to how religion uses mythology like this, but then they make the claim that you MUST look at it this way or you are all wrong. (You MUST believe that Jesus physically rose from the dead, or else you go to Hell - and they have no proof of either... They are simply being assholes. Or, if you like, Muslims are being assholes if they think that we must accept their interpretation of mythology.)


I'm not forcing anyone to accpet my version of mythology, though there is no problem in asking. I won't threaten you with eternal torture if you don't.   However, this is different from Rational thinking.  I am adamant about reason, logic and science being the best method for discovering truths about our universe and existence. It has proven its worth in the last 300 years.

I see a strong division is necessary when speaking of the two things in the public realm, but people are welcome to go home and believe whatever they wish: I just hope that when in public, and when considering the future of our species and planet, that society, as a whole - as a meme - accepts that Reason is the key to salvation, not faith.

Nice posts....both of you.

Agreed.

Thanks Patton.

Well put. I didn't think something terrible happened to you, but for whatever reason I imagined that you started out a Catholic or one of the more hardcore and ancient Christians, mainly because although you do try to spread your viewpoint you seem to aim it at the religious. For years you have remained in this section 'battling' the religious. Anyway, thanks for sharing.

It is a shame that some rotten fruit can poison the whole bowl.

What happened to you Barnes would infuriate me as a parent, even though I am Christian....NO ONE speaks to my child in this way and under those conditions.

No matter how promising the message or what good deeds are inspired...there will always be some who pervert the message or corrupt the deeds for selfish benefit whether the message and deeds are religious, political, or otherwise.

Great thread guys.  Isn't it funny that a thread started with some gimcrack nonsense can lead to such careful and sincere discussions of beliefs in the metaphysics of the universe.

I think that determinism can be a much more varied and rich explanation of our feelings of self and self-worth.  Indeterminism is a (the only) counter, but this is I think explicable, if we can only put more investigation into the workings of the brain (consider the evolutionary reasons for recursive activity...).  Free will is not totally free and not solely a matter of will - so in its primitive form does not exist.  BUT individual responses to our social surroundings DOES exist, and this is enough to validate our identities.