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Author Topic: Dover Down!  (Read 456 times)
daedalus 2.0
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« on: November 16, 2007, 10:45:14 PM »

Check out the discussion board over on NOVA after their documentary about the Dover trial.

Logical fallacies fly left and right, mischaracterizations of atheists abound as well.

Have fun.
http://discussions.pbs.org/viewforum.pbs?f=231

btw, I challange RF to bring his "A game" to the board and tell us who he is posting as. He wouldn't be posting to people disinterested in pseudoscience, but real scientists that are ready to test his psuedoscience.

It has been noted here that he posts to a rather small and novice group, but since he claims to be a scientist and know that ID is valid, I'd like to see how he operates with people who can cut through the mubo jumbo.

What do you say, RF?  Will you go and start a topic? Wink
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Factinista
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« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2007, 10:40:02 PM »

well RF?
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2007, 05:34:43 AM »

No thanks.  The debate is a political scientific debate.  This forum is the proper place for these discussions.

In other threads I have shown that surveys of the scientific community show that most (72%) are skeptical of the ability for material causes to explain life and diversity of life with no outside intervention (God or some other intelligent agent). 

On this basis I would say that my side of this argument is doing quite well.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2007, 04:23:10 PM »

Do you mean this poll?

1. Are you aware of any scientifically valid evidence or an alternate scientific theory that challenges the fundamental principles of the theory of evolution?
1. Yes -- 4%
2. No -- 93
3. Not Sure -- 2


2. The concept of “Intelligent Design” is that life and the universe are too complex to have developed without the intervention of a purposeful being or force to guide the development of life. Which of the following do you think best describes “Intelligent Design”?
1. It is strongly supported by scientific evidence -- 2%
2. It is partly supported by scientific evidence -- 5 
3. It is not supported at all by scientific evidence -- 90
4. Not Sure -- 3


3. Do you think the concept of “Intelligent Design” is primarily a religious view?”
1. Yes -- 91%
2. No -- 5
3. Not Sure -- 4


4. Do you think Ohio high school students should be tested on their understanding of the basic principles of the theory of evolution in order to graduate?
1. Yes -- 92%
2. No -- 4
3. Not Sure -- 3


5. Do you think Ohio high school students should be tested on their knowledge of the concept of “Intelligent Design” in order to graduate?
1. Yes -- 6%
2. No -- 90
3. Not Sure -- 4


6. Do you use the concept of Intelligent Design in your research?
1. Yes -- 2%
2. No -- 97
Not Sure -- 1


7. Do you think accepting the theory of evolution is consistent with believing in God?
a. Yes -- 84%
b. No -- 9
c. Not Sure -- 7


http://www.natcenscied.org/resources/articles/733_ohio_scientists39_intellige_10_15_2002.asp

I don't see where it says 72% are skeptical, I see where it says that 90% say ID is a crock.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2007, 04:38:26 PM »

No indeed.  What a great example of how not to perform a statistically valid survey.  This poll was of teachers/professors, the questions are leading, and the poll takers had a vested interest in the outcome (they were biased). The results are nearly meaningless, but that is likely why you find it so appealing.  Notice that most of the respondents did not even know what ID was, yet they were asked their opinion of it anyway.

I notice that you maneuvered far from the statistically valid polls I provided in the other thread.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2007, 08:05:49 PM »

No indeed.  What a great example of how not to perform a statistically valid survey.  This poll was of teachers/professors, the questions are leading, and the poll takers had a vested interest in the outcome (they were biased). The results are nearly meaningless, but that is likely why you find it so appealing.  Notice that most of the respondents did not even know what ID was, yet they were asked their opinion of it anyway.

I notice that you maneuvered far from the statistically valid polls I provided in the other thread.

Yes, make all the assertion s you want. It's all a great conspiracy! Roll Eyes
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2007, 08:18:49 PM »

No indeed.  What a great example of how not to perform a statistically valid survey.  This poll was of teachers/professors, the questions are leading, and the poll takers had a vested interest in the outcome (they were biased). The results are nearly meaningless, but that is likely why you find it so appealing.  Notice that most of the respondents did not even know what ID was, yet they were asked their opinion of it anyway.

I notice that you maneuvered far from the statistically valid polls I provided in the other thread.

Yes, make all the assertion s you want. It's all a great conspiracy! Roll Eyes

I don't claim conspiracy.  It is however quite clearly a biased and invalid survey.
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Biker Dude
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2007, 09:45:50 PM »

I don't see where it says 72% are skeptical, I see where it says that 90% say ID is a crock.
I would have been more believing if you source had been a little more neutral Barnes...
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Who will watch the watchers?

Now that it is over, what are we going to talk about?
Factinista
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2007, 09:21:35 AM »

Science is not ruled by the masses... 72% of random American polulation proves only that we are the most religious nation in the west.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2007, 11:47:58 AM »

I don't see where it says 72% are skeptical, I see where it says that 90% say ID is a crock.
I would have been more believing if you source had been a little more neutral Barnes...

The truth is, there aren't many polls about this. Most deal with the general population, or a large umbrella of peope called scientists, but in many different fields, expertise, ability and knowledge.  For example, a sociologist is a scientist, but why would he know about evolutionary biology? Or a chemical engineer, for that matter?

The irony is that it doesn't matter. The amount of people believing one hing or another is poor evidence for its truth.  Plus, RF has also commented that the high number of Atheists, or anti-IDists in science is a testament to the closed door policy they have towards religious people.

This of course is ridiculous, but it helps RF to believe this.  So, it is odd that he even brings this up.
If 80% of scientists are Xian and don't believe ID, he'll blame in on the "don't speak, don't tell policy". If 20% are xian, He'll cry bigotry.

Only until scientists become Xian ID'ists will he be happy, and all the polls, despite their focus, are NOT trending that way.

So, everyone can go and get a poll and we can look at it critically to see what the general scientific consensus is, or we can read what their official statement is.  (The NAS, and a vast majority of science organizations flatly deny ID is a science.)

Or, we can compare the science to ID, which RF refuses to on other forums where peope might actual know more.

I think the only strategy is to invite them here.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2007, 04:29:27 PM »

I don't see where it says 72% are skeptical, I see where it says that 90% say ID is a crock.
I would have been more believing if you source had been a little more neutral Barnes...

The truth is, there aren't many polls about this.

No, sorry barney.  Gallup has been doing these polls since the late sixties. The one the NYT wrote about was first done in early part if last century.

Quote
The irony is that it doesn't matter. The amount of people believing one hing or another is poor evidence for its truth.  Plus, RF has also commented that the high number of Atheists, or anti-IDists in science is a testament to the closed door policy they have towards religious people.

The polls were offered to justify my claim that I don't need to go off convincing scientists about alternatives to materialistic philosophies of science because the alternatives are more popular in the scientific community than is materialism.  My side of the debate is holding its own.

My reference to the closed society dealt with the 520 or so members of the 2200 member closed National Academy of Science members who are there by invitation only.

Quote
This of course is ridiculous, but it helps RF to believe this.  So, it is odd that he even brings this up.
If 80% of scientists are Xian and don't believe ID, he'll blame in on the "don't speak, don't tell policy". If 20% are xian, He'll cry bigotry.

I'll simply say your data is wrong or does not represent the community has a whole.  This is why the Gallup organization is proficient at polling and your limited polls are nearly worthless.  Perhaps you can support the assertions you make.

Quote
(The NAS, and a vast majority of science organizations flatly deny ID is a science.)

What a shock, the NAS?  Say it isn't so.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2007, 08:23:04 AM »

Yes, it's all a big conspiracy!

I notice that you accept polls that support your conclusion but reject those that challenge it. You are not even trying to maintain a veneer of impartiality.

RF, the polls indicate that scientists are less theistic, and that they reject ID/Creationism.  And the NAS the standard in scientific excellence - NOT the Discovery Institute.

I wish, RF, that you would be honest about your role in spreading propaganda for Creationism, at least to yourself.
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2007, 10:19:27 AM »

Yes, it's all a big conspiracy!

A big conspiracy? No just the same old occasional bias from individuals and groups.

Quote
I notice that you accept polls that support your conclusion but reject those that challenge it. You are not even trying to maintain a veneer of impartiality.

I accept polls that are properly set up and implemented and don't try to project to a population that the surveyed don't represent.  Your problem is that valid polls reflect reality.  A reality you don't care for and you are forced to retreat to invalid polls to prop up your prejudice.

Quote
RF, the polls indicate that scientists are less theistic,


Agreed, this is true, the science community is less theistic than the general public.

Quote
and that they reject ID/Creationism.

Not true.  Only certain subgroups reject ID and/or Creationism.

Quote
And the NAS the standard in scientific excellence - NOT the Discovery Institute.

You may recognize them as the standard in your brand of excellence.  Increasingly they are becoming quite hostile to properly conducted scientific inquiry that challenges their worldview

Quote
I wish, RF, that you would be honest about your role in spreading propaganda for Creationism, at least to yourself.

I don't hide from my biases.  In the religion section I speak of my worldview and my belief in a creator.  In the science section, I stay focused on the scientific method and ask you and jpn to do the same.  I see it is a request that the two of you have great difficulty honoring.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2007, 04:06:26 PM »

I expect no other response from you. I know you would never admit that you work for the DI, and are a warrior for Jesus, like Paul - the lying bastard. Wink
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2007, 11:35:25 PM »

It is now online:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html
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