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Author Topic: This crow tastes good...  (Read 686 times)
FreeinTX
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« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2007, 01:10:21 PM »

One of the crowning arguments that Republicans like to use when debating Iraq is that Democrats *LOVE* bad news. No argument has ever made me more sick in my entire life. I mean seriously... how do you even argue with such a ridiculous statement?

I have ALWAYS said that I hope I'm wrong about Iraq. I hope it can stabalize and I hope we can leave without a big power vacuum or some calamotous implosion.

Well, crow never tasted so good:

Quote from: New York Times
Baghdad Starts to Exhale as Security Improves

BAGHDAD, Nov. 19 — Five months ago, Suhaila al-Aasan lived in an oxygen tank factory with her husband and two sons, convinced that they would never go back to their apartment in Dora, a middle-class neighborhood in southern Baghdad.

Today she is home again, cooking by a sunlit window, sleeping beneath her favorite wedding picture. And yet, she and her family are remarkably alone. The half-dozen other apartments in her building echo with emptiness and, on most days, Iraqi soldiers are the only neighbors she sees.

“I feel happy,” she said, standing in her bedroom, between a flowered bedspread and a bullet hole in the wall. “But my happiness is not complete. We need more people to come back. We need more people to feel safe.”

Mrs. Aasan, 45, a Shiite librarian with an easy laugh, is living at the far end of Baghdad’s tentative recovery. She is one of many Iraqis who in recent weeks have begun to test where they can go and what they can do when fear no longer controls their every move.

The security improvements in most neighborhoods are real. Days now pass without a car bomb, after a high of 44 in the city in February. The number of bodies appearing on Baghdad’s streets has plummeted to about 5 a day, from as many as 35 eight months ago, and suicide bombings across Iraq fell to 16 in October, half the number of last summer and down sharply from a recent peak of 59 in March, the American military says.

LINK for more

And it's from the NYT, no less.

You sound just like Lush Limbagh.

Any time the slightest trend toward improvement occurs, this is what we hear.  But then a month later, and it is far worse than it was.

Okay Iraq is better because fewer troops were killed?  Is that the good news?  Yea, troops are dying at a slower rate than last month or the month before.  Exxon couldn't break their record this quarter for record quarter profits, does that mean they are losing money?  NO.

Just because violence in some parts of the country are down, indicate ABSOLUTELY nothing.  Maybe weather was bad.  Maybe they are planning something big.  aybe they are just waiting you out, like you argue they will do if we set a time table.  Who knows?

But what about dissentary?  Is that down?  Running water?  Do more homes have it?  Electricity?  It is at pre-war levels yet?  Do they get more than 8 hours a day of it?  What about political progress?  Any made at all?  Did one of the many issues the Iraqi government disagree on get solved in the last 8 months? 

I remember hearing Lush say when the price of gas went from $2.50 to $2.25 a gallon, "See the price of gas is getting better, it's turning around."  YEA, RIGHT!!!!

One month of lowered violence, and all of the sudden, "THINGS ARE WORKING IN IRAQ."  B-LLSH-T!!!!!  And compared to 8 months ago?  It was horrible then, so what if its a bit better than horrible.  What is that terrible?  Tragic?  16 suicide bombings and that is improved security?  Give me a break.  How about a month without a bombing?  How far away are we from that?  Current trends tend to indicate what, the end of time?

Do you see us leaving Iraq in the next 6 months?

That's what they said when we went in.  Less than 6 months.  Less than a BILLION dollars.  Greated as LIBERATORS.  Cake-walk.  So are we back to that, yet?  6 more months?  About a BILLION more dollars?  Are we liked by the average Iraqi, yet?  Is it easy now?

PLEASE. 

Hey gas dropped a penny, I guess that back on the decline again, right?  We should see $20 a barrel oil again any day now, right?  Get back to $40 a barrel being the "ceiling" like it was in 2002?

FreeinTX

   
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Citizen4Progress
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« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2007, 03:07:56 PM »

I disagree with your assessment, especially the part about credibility. I believe our government has lost credibility with a large percentage of Americans and also with most of the world. As long as our foreign policy is based on a false premise we cannot regain our credibility OR hope to formulate a foreign policy that serves our national interests and achieves the best possible outcome in Iraq.

The only solution is to elect a government that doesn't espouse foreign intervention at every turn. Aside from Ron Paul, and among the leading candidates, Obama is the closest I can see to a truely decent foreign policy strategy. If I can't have Ron Paul, I'll vote for Obama.

But more and more this election is between Clinton and Guiliani. Obama just overtook Clinton in a recent poll, and THAT'S reassuring... but it's a pitance.

My point is that while we (partly) deserve the government we elect, the guy we choose usually isn't the best candidate... just not the worst.
If you want a government "that doesn't espouse foreign intervention at every turn" Rudy Giuliani is the LAST person you want to vote for. Rudy's foreign policy team is comprised of hardcore neocons. Giuliani is perhaps the biggest hawk in a field of hawkish Republican candidates.

I've never liked Hillary Clinton. She is (gasp!) a shrewd, calculating, ambitious politician (not exactly a rare species in Washington). She is portrayed by the right as evil incarnate, while the far left villifies her as a triangulating centrist whose rhetoric about getting us out of Iraq is belied by her stated intent to keep some comabt troops in Iraq for missions against al Qaeda.

Believe it or not, although I am dead-set against a permanent U.S. military presence in Iraq, I agree with Clinton that combat troops are necessary (at least in the short term) for missions against al Qaeda. The post that started this thread pointed out the recent security gains in Baghdad and other former hot spots of Sunni insurgent activity. These gains are largely due to a significant development -- Iraqi Sunni tribal leaders and insurgents have turned against al Qaeda. This was perhaps inevitable, because the Sunnis who formerly ruled Iraq are Arab nationalists -- not radical Islamic fundamentalists. Their goals for Iraq's future are at odds with al Qaeda's.

In any event, former Sunni insurgents are turning to the U.S. military for help in defeating al Qaeda. If Iraq is to have any chance at stability, al Qaeda in Iraq needs to be defeated. Though always a small percentage of the insurgency, al Qaeda was responsible for a lot of the bombings -- including the Golden Mosque bombing at Samarra, which triggered a major escalation in the civil war between Sunnis and Shiites.

Our invasion and occupation of Iraq opened the door to al Qaeda and set in motion years of chaos and bloodshed. We are obligated to assist in this new opportunity to achieve stability. We also need to repudiate the policy of "preemptive" war, permanent military bases in Iraq, and our designs on their oil.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 03:13:21 PM by Citizen4Progress » Logged

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Patton
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« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2007, 06:05:40 PM »

C4P I have enjoyed this...and wish to respond...I must leave for a week, return next Friday night.

I hope this thread stays alive until I return.

Peace.
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood

-George S. Patton
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