Factinista
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« on: November 20, 2007, 12:52:02 PM » |
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Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for. --Douglas Adams ---------------- This is such a great quote I thought it would be interested to throw it around here. It is exactly the kind of thing I think Sci-Fi writers are great at, showing us the world in a way we almost never see. And it destroys the basic concept behind Creationsim  |
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bringbackwigs
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2007, 12:55:11 PM » |
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Destroys? Interesting, yes, but nothing more.
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In religion and politics, people\\\\\\\\\'s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination. - Mark Twain  |
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Major Zee Lee
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2007, 01:12:11 PM » |
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Oh, no, not again -a bowl of petunias facing a certain death. 
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« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 01:14:44 PM by Major Zee Lee »
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Do not take life too seriously; nobody lives to tell.
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IamMe
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2007, 03:12:46 PM » |
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Destroys? Interesting, yes, but nothing more.
No it destroys the idea that because the universe suits us it must have been designed with us in mind. It's kind of a roundabout version of the antrophic principle. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
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bringbackwigs
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2007, 04:08:20 PM » |
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The universe suits us? Hmm, never heard that claim before.
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In religion and politics, people\\\\\\\\\'s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination. - Mark Twain |
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2007, 03:39:32 PM » |
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It is a spectacularly weak analog. A puddle (liquid water under the influence of gravity) fits anything it falls into equally well. Life quite clearly does not.
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Major Zee Lee
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2007, 02:02:39 AM » |
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It is a spectacularly weak analog. A puddle (liquid water under the influence of gravity) fits anything it falls into equally well. Life quite clearly does not.
Compared to the claim that the explanation to the (too improbable complexity) of life is the (too improbable complexity^2) of an intelligent designer, it stands its humble ground well.  All in all, puddles don't think, too. Yet probably everyone got the idea -it's easy to think it's the universe what fits you, and not the opposite, until the universe goes and destroys you without notice. |
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Do not take life too seriously; nobody lives to tell.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2007, 06:16:40 AM » |
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The quote dramatically downplays the reality of the number of conditions that all seem to be conspiring together to make life in this universe possible in the first place. The quote makes it seem that the conditions for life are easy, like water fits a hole. The reality is so far from that illustration, that it boggles the mind of anyone who takes the time to think about it. The physical parameters that allow matter to freely interact in the nearly countless ways that it does is all required to ultimately allow these same materials to form up immensely complicated self-replicating polymers and the myriad of metabolic pathways.
The quote tries to make the point that life was and is a slam dunk. Those who know better, know it is exactly the opposite. They know that the number of conditions are so numerous, the opportunities for a chance wrong turn so great, that only intentional intervention could bring about the configuration we observe. Without intervention, and with only the indeterminism of Quantum Mechanics, this universe should have been configured like the uncountable number of permutations that would not be capable of supporting self-polymerization and then life. The ratio of failure configurations to successful ones has been estimated at 10 to the power of a number far greater than the number of all the atoms in this universe. Chance cannot account for such events as this universe.
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Major Zee Lee
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2007, 09:47:00 AM » |
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Oh, yes, even a ironical analogy by Douglas Adams (that famed scientist ) is evidence that ID is right... |
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Do not take life too seriously; nobody lives to tell.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2007, 11:56:54 AM » |
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Oh, yes, even a ironical analogy by Douglas Adams (that famed scientist ) is evidence that ID is right... Have a look again at the commentary by the OP. The claim was that this quote demonstrates how one can destroy the basic concept of creationism. The quote contains a weak analogy. It does not accurately reflect the situation behind life and the origin of life. Therefore it does not show the world for what it is and it does not destroy the basic concept behind creationism. |
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Callum
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2007, 12:54:58 PM » |
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....it boggles the mind of anyone who takes the time to think about it. The physical parameters that allow matter to freely interact in the nearly countless ways that it does is all required to ultimately allow these same materials to form up immensely complicated self-replicating polymers and the myriad of metabolic pathways.
The ratio of failure configurations to successful ones has been estimated at 10 to the power of a number far greater than the number of all the atoms in this universe. Chance cannot account for such events as this universe.
Matter interacts in countless ways. Therefore the number of atoms is irrelevant. What is important is the fact that the interractions resulted in this universe and this planet where life occured. Boggled minds have nothing to do with it. Given countless ways of interracting, and a huge number of atoms, what boggles the mind would be that life did NOT arise - at some stage in an infinite timespan. It so happens that it was on Earth, 13 billion years after the start. Maybe it could have been planet xyz after y years - and the developed organisms - if they survived - would probably have been boggled that they were there. Chance may have started life - but the ongoing development, at least here, were in no way 'chance'. They are the result of a principle that is within all life - to produce offspring better suited to the environment they come into. |
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2007, 01:40:36 PM » |
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Oh, yes, even a ironical analogy by Douglas Adams (that famed scientist ) is evidence that ID is right... Have a look again at the commentary by the OP. The claim was that this quote demonstrates how one can destroy the basic concept of creationism. The quote contains a weak analogy. It does not accurately reflect the situation behind life and the origin of life. Therefore it does not show the world for what it is and it does not destroy the basic concept behind creationism. Its odd that the OP mentioned Creationism and you going into the argument from design and ID. Hmmmm, I thought ID and Creationism were unrelated? Gotcha! |
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\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
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God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2007, 01:51:11 PM » |
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Oh, yes, even a ironical analogy by Douglas Adams (that famed scientist ) is evidence that ID is right... Have a look again at the commentary by the OP. The claim was that this quote demonstrates how one can destroy the basic concept of creationism. The quote contains a weak analogy. It does not accurately reflect the situation behind life and the origin of life. Therefore it does not show the world for what it is and it does not destroy the basic concept behind creationism. Its odd that the OP mentioned Creationism and you going into the argument from design and ID. Hmmmm, I thought ID and Creationism were unrelated? Gotcha! Where did I mention ID? This is the religion section not the science section. MLZ used the term ID when the OP had used creationism. You caught MLZ mixing the terms. Unlike him, I know the difference. |
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2007, 02:16:53 PM » |
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....it boggles the mind of anyone who takes the time to think about it. The physical parameters that allow matter to freely interact in the nearly countless ways that it does is all required to ultimately allow these same materials to form up immensely complicated self-replicating polymers and the myriad of metabolic pathways.
The ratio of failure configurations to successful ones has been estimated at 10 to the power of a number far greater than the number of all the atoms in this universe. Chance cannot account for such events as this universe.
Matter interacts in countless ways. Therefore the number of atoms is irrelevant. In this situation it makes for a good illustration of the magnitude of the number we are dealing with. What is important is the fact that the interractions resulted in this universe and this planet where life occured. Boggled minds have nothing to do with it. Given countless ways of interracting, and a huge number of atoms, what boggles the mind would be that life did NOT arise - at some stage in an infinite timespan. I doubt it. I think you are making this up. Please walk me through the science and formulas that demonstrate you are using logic and reason to come to this conclusion. Chance may have started life - but the ongoing development, at least here, were in no way 'chance'. They are the result of a principle that is within all life - to produce offspring better suited to the environment they come into.
Chance is a major component in the narrative that is evolutionary theory. Modification is by mutations and other chance processes act first before selection can do a thing. If chance is incapable of producing useful new function as experiment and observation indicates and if there are no selectable evolutionary pathways from one actual genetic configuration to another then selection is impotent. The evidence from our world is not change, it stasis. Observations of evolution in progress shows that it is quite proficient at damaging function in response to selection pressure. The observations do not show that evolution produces a progression of better suited offspring that could lead to the diversity we see before us. |
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IamMe
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2007, 02:18:27 PM » |
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The quote dramatically downplays the reality of the number of conditions that all seem to be conspiring together to make life in this universe possible in the first place. The quote makes it seem that the conditions for life are easy, like water fits a hole. The reality is so far from that illustration, that it boggles the mind of anyone who takes the time to think about it. The physical parameters that allow matter to freely interact in the nearly countless ways that it does is all required to ultimately allow these same materials to form up immensely complicated self-replicating polymers and the myriad of metabolic pathways.
The quote tries to make the point that life was and is a slam dunk. Those who know better, know it is exactly the opposite. They know that the number of conditions are so numerous, the opportunities for a chance wrong turn so great, that only intentional intervention could bring about the configuration we observe. Without intervention, and with only the indeterminism of Quantum Mechanics, this universe should have been configured like the uncountable number of permutations that would not be capable of supporting self-polymerization and then life. The ratio of failure configurations to successful ones has been estimated at 10 to the power of a number far greater than the number of all the atoms in this universe. Chance cannot account for such events as this universe.
Of course chance can account for it! You have just admitted that the probability is non-zero, so obviously chance is a potential answer, especially since you have no idea what size the sample space is i.e. how many universes there are/have been, what conditions were in place pre-big bang or even if there was a before the big bang. What we do know is that if the universe hadn't turned out to suit us then we wouldn't be here to realise it. All we can say is that, whatever started it, we are here because the universe is one which we can inhabit. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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