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Author Topic: The world was made with us in mind?  (Read 990 times)
daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2007, 03:46:31 PM »

Oh, yes, even a ironical analogy by Douglas Adams (that famed scientist Roll Eyes) is evidence that ID is right... Roll Eyes

Have a look again at the commentary by the OP. The claim was that this quote demonstrates how one can destroy the basic concept of creationism.  The quote contains a weak analogy.  It does not accurately reflect the situation behind life and the origin of life.  Therefore it does not show the world for what it is and it does not destroy the basic concept behind creationism.
Its odd that the OP mentioned Creationism and you going into the argument from design and ID.

Hmmmm, I thought ID and Creationism were unrelated?

Gotcha! Wink

Where did I mention ID? This is the religion section not the science section.  MLZ used the term ID when the OP had used creationism.  You caught MLZ mixing the terms.  Unlike him, I know the difference.

Don't be coy, you even allude to Dumbski's UPB.
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2007, 03:55:55 PM »

Its odd that the OP mentioned Creationism and you going into the argument from design and ID.

Hmmmm, I thought ID and Creationism were unrelated?

Gotcha! Wink

Where did I mention ID? This is the religion section not the science section.  MLZ used the term ID when the OP had used creationism.  You caught MLZ mixing the terms.  Unlike him, I know the difference.

Don't be coy, you even allude to Dumbski's UPB.

The universal probability bound does not apply to events that transcend this universe.  I used the number of atoms as an illustration.  I am not being coy.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2007, 04:04:13 PM »

The quote dramatically downplays the reality of the number of conditions that all seem to be conspiring together to make life in this universe possible in the first place.  The quote makes it seem that the conditions for life are easy, like water fits a hole.  The reality is so far from that illustration, that it boggles the mind of anyone who takes the time to think about it.  The physical parameters that allow matter to freely interact in the nearly countless ways that it does is all required to ultimately allow these same materials to form up immensely complicated self-replicating polymers and the myriad of metabolic pathways.

The quote tries to make the point that life was and is a slam dunk.  Those who know better, know it is exactly the opposite.  They know that the number of conditions are so numerous, the opportunities for a chance wrong turn so great, that only intentional intervention could bring about the configuration we observe.  Without intervention, and with only the indeterminism of Quantum Mechanics, this universe should have been configured like the uncountable number of permutations that would not be capable of supporting self-polymerization and then life.  The ratio of failure configurations to successful ones has been estimated at 10 to the power of a number far greater than the number of all the atoms in this universe.  Chance cannot account for such events as this universe.

Of course chance can account for it! You have just  admitted that the probability is non-zero, so obviously chance is a potential answer, especially since you have no idea what size the sample space is i.e. how many universes there are/have been, what conditions were in place pre-big bang or even if there was a before the big bang.

Our current knowledge of the physical constants and their relationships gives us no way other than imagination to infer anything other than one (this universe) in sample space.   One is insufficient to allow chance to account for observed configuration.  What happened to rules of logic and reason, IamMe? 
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« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2007, 07:44:42 PM »

....it boggles the mind of anyone who takes the time to think about it.  The physical parameters that allow matter to freely interact in the nearly countless ways that it does is all required to ultimately allow these same materials to form up immensely complicated self-replicating polymers and the myriad of metabolic pathways.

The ratio of failure configurations to successful ones has been estimated at 10 to the power of a number far greater than the number of all the atoms in this universe.  Chance cannot account for such events as this universe.

Matter interacts in countless ways.  Therefore the number of atoms is irrelevant.

In this situation it makes for a good illustration of the magnitude of the number we are dealing with.

What number is that?
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2007, 08:15:14 PM »

uh oh, here we go again in circles.... Roll Eyes Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2007, 02:47:39 AM »

uh oh, here we go again in circles.... Roll Eyes Smiley

It's the motorbike tactic*.


*When a teenager wants that his parents buy him a motorbike, one of each two sentences he says will include the word "motorbike". Like: "Did you liked that?" "Yes mom, it ruled like a motorbike" "Go clean your room" "Later, I'll do it fast as a motorbike" "How was the test?" "I think i missed because I don't have a motorbike". Et cetera. Cool
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« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2007, 05:08:15 AM »

....it boggles the mind of anyone who takes the time to think about it.  The physical parameters that allow matter to freely interact in the nearly countless ways that it does is all required to ultimately allow these same materials to form up immensely complicated self-replicating polymers and the myriad of metabolic pathways.

The ratio of failure configurations to successful ones has been estimated at 10 to the power of a number far greater than the number of all the atoms in this universe.  Chance cannot account for such events as this universe.

Matter interacts in countless ways.  Therefore the number of atoms is irrelevant.

In this situation it makes for a good illustration of the magnitude of the number we are dealing with.

What number is that?

I can recommend an article or book.  The observations that 30-40 physical constants are fine tuned to support life has been known for some time now.  Knowing your penchant for detail and supposing your motivations, I have no interest in a long and fruitless conversation about it.

Here Physicist Paul Davies, who is not a theist, writes that the consensus view is increasingly impressed with the evidence for “some sort of design” of the cosmos:

The temptation to believe that the Universe is the product of some sort of design, a manifestation of subtle aesthetic and mathematical judgment, is overwhelming. The belief that there is ‘something behind it all’ is one that I personally share with, I suspect, a majority of physicists.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2007, 06:53:17 AM by Reasoned Faith » Logged
daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2007, 11:39:41 AM »

I too think something is behind it all. You simply take many leaps of faith: it has intelligence, likes the smell of blood, cares about your penis, will torture people who don't like or obey him, etc.

The problem is in the weasel word: something. To you it means anything, especially the spontaneous existence of the most perfect and compex Something even concievable.

But yours is an argument from Authority.  I understand many scientists believe "something" is behind it. Some of them are trying to find out what it is. Either way, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I don't know much about Davies, but to say he's not a theist is odd considering, for example:

Davies, Paul C.W. [Physicist and Professor of Natural Philosophy, University of Adelaide], "The Christian perspective of a scientist."
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« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2007, 11:59:42 AM »

The quote dramatically downplays the reality of the number of conditions that all seem to be conspiring together to make life in this universe possible in the first place.  The quote makes it seem that the conditions for life are easy, like water fits a hole.  The reality is so far from that illustration, that it boggles the mind of anyone who takes the time to think about it.  The physical parameters that allow matter to freely interact in the nearly countless ways that it does is all required to ultimately allow these same materials to form up immensely complicated self-replicating polymers and the myriad of metabolic pathways.

The quote tries to make the point that life was and is a slam dunk.  Those who know better, know it is exactly the opposite.  They know that the number of conditions are so numerous, the opportunities for a chance wrong turn so great, that only intentional intervention could bring about the configuration we observe.  Without intervention, and with only the indeterminism of Quantum Mechanics, this universe should have been configured like the uncountable number of permutations that would not be capable of supporting self-polymerization and then life.  The ratio of failure configurations to successful ones has been estimated at 10 to the power of a number far greater than the number of all the atoms in this universe.  Chance cannot account for such events as this universe.

Of course chance can account for it! You have just  admitted that the probability is non-zero, so obviously chance is a potential answer, especially since you have no idea what size the sample space is i.e. how many universes there are/have been, what conditions were in place pre-big bang or even if there was a before the big bang.

Our current knowledge of the physical constants and their relationships gives us no way other than imagination to infer anything other than one (this universe) in sample space.   One is insufficient to allow chance to account for observed configuration.  What happened to rules of logic and reason, IamMe? 

First of all, you are assuming it happened either by chance or by design. There is of course a third option.

Also, logic and reason tell us that a non-zero probability is still a possibility.

And, since we do not know what (if anything) exists outside our universe of before the big bang, we can't say with any degree of certainty whether there is 1 universe or billions of universes or infinite universes. One universe is not the default option. Simply (and correctly) pointing out that we have no evidence on which to infer multiple universes does not mean that we assume only one universe until there is evidence to the contrary. Both are positive statements, so the burden of proof should be shared equally. The default position is don't know.
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« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2007, 12:30:15 PM »

Our current knowledge of the physical constants and their relationships gives us no way other than imagination to infer anything other than one (this universe) in sample space.   One is insufficient to allow chance to account for observed configuration.  What happened to rules of logic and reason, IamMe? 

Correction:  YOUR 'knowledge'.
Correction 2:  ANY is sufficient to account for observed configuration.  See Major Zee Lees references to the anthropic principle.

'Fine-tuning' is simply a further attempt to project the theist view onto to the observable universe.  Rather like the circular reasoning if ID.  (I have decideed that god is the answer to everything, therefore everything I look at proves that god was its source)
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« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2007, 12:37:36 PM »

(I have decideed that god is the answer to everything, therefore everything I look at proves that god was its source)

I'd like to add something: Sure God explains everything (except the lack of evidence for his own existence) and that is exactly why the explanation is wrong. It's too easy. It's lazy. It avoids the important questions by simply attributing all unexplained events to a magic entity that can do anything.
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« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2007, 03:30:13 PM »

(I have decideed that god is the answer to everything, therefore everything I look at proves that god was its source)

I'd like to add something: Sure God explains everything (except the lack of evidence for his own existence) and that is exactly why the explanation is wrong. It's too easy. It's lazy. It avoids the important questions by simply attributing all unexplained events to a magic entity that can do anything.

It is interesting that you find God (an explanation that includes evidence that you seem to ignore), wrong, but three breaths earlier you find infinite universes (an explanation we all agree has no evidence) perfectly valid.

I completely agree that possibilities that offer no evidence are inferior to possibilities that include evidence and this is why infinite universes is inferior to one universe.   It is also why a creator is a viable explanation.
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« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2007, 01:11:13 PM »

(I have decideed that god is the answer to everything, therefore everything I look at proves that god was its source)

I'd like to add something: Sure God explains everything (except the lack of evidence for his own existence) and that is exactly why the explanation is wrong. It's too easy. It's lazy. It avoids the important questions by simply attributing all unexplained events to a magic entity that can do anything.

It is interesting that you find God (an explanation that includes evidence that you seem to ignore), wrong, but three breaths earlier you find infinite universes (an explanation we all agree has no evidence) perfectly valid.

I completely agree that possibilities that offer no evidence are inferior to possibilities that include evidence and this is why infinite universes is inferior to one universe.   It is also why a creator is a viable explanation.

What evidence? The apparent improbability of our universe is equally well explained by the existence of a creator or the existence of a large number or an infinite number of universes.
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« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2007, 04:00:09 PM »

(I have decideed that god is the answer to everything, therefore everything I look at proves that god was its source)

I'd like to add something: Sure God explains everything (except the lack of evidence for his own existence) and that is exactly why the explanation is wrong. It's too easy. It's lazy. It avoids the important questions by simply attributing all unexplained events to a magic entity that can do anything.

It is interesting that you find God (an explanation that includes evidence that you seem to ignore), wrong, but three breaths earlier you find infinite universes (an explanation we all agree has no evidence) perfectly valid.

I completely agree that possibilities that offer no evidence are inferior to possibilities that include evidence and this is why infinite universes is inferior to one universe.   It is also why a creator is a viable explanation.

What evidence? The apparent improbability of our universe is equally well explained by the existence of a creator or the existence of a large number or an infinite number of universes.

The evidence from historical and documents and literary analysis are the most glaring examples you ignore.

You are correct that those who suggest an intelligent agent as a creator have  a easier explanation than materialists because any prospective explanation must be internally consistent with the overall premise and in your case postulating infinite universes is not consistent with what we know about matter and space and time and energy.  Because of this and until the boundary conditions are resolved you alternative is inferior.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2007, 08:07:18 AM »

The funny thing is, is that RF still doesn't see the error of his fallacy. He has invested so much time on trying to understand it, he can't let it go.

1. He thinks that the universe is designed, but has no evidence of a designer which would have had to be more "designed" in order to create a design such like the universe. Meanwhile, the physical properties of the universe explain virtually everything quite nicely - not bad for only about 300 years of work. (as opposed to 10K's of religious thinking).

2. He suggests that the "fine-tuned" aspect of the universe is so precise that any change would render life impossible.
a.  How does he know? Has he twiddled with the knobs?
b.  If that is the case, then I'd appreciate an account of how a designer had life before the conditions of life were available?

Its obvious that RF expects reality to conform to his theology, just like Paul Davies, who, despite the ham-handed attempt by RF to claim that Davies "isn't a Theist" (as if he should be heeded because he's not a supernatural dogmatist) IS a Deist and apologist for the Xian religion.

Basically, there haven't been any new arguments for a god in 800 years, and yet plenty new ones against god that have gone unanswered, or have retreated to "you have to take it on faith".

RF may feel that faith is an important tool for knowledge - that he takes both his religion and science on faith, but he needn't speak for the rest of us, nor try to confuse the issue with his personal belief system.
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