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Author Topic: The world was made with us in mind?  (Read 985 times)
Callum
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« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2007, 10:06:51 AM »

The evidence from historical and documents and literary analysis are the most glaring examples you ignore.

You are correct that those who suggest an intelligent agent as a creator have  a easier explanation than materialists because any prospective explanation must be internally consistent with the overall premise and in your case postulating infinite universes is not consistent with what we know about matter and space and time and energy.  Because of this and until the boundary conditions are resolved you alternative is inferior.

(a) The "evidence" you allude to is not evidence.  There is nothing special about it - many societies have holy books and myths.  They vary.  Each can be subjected to 'literary analysis' and yield similar results.

(b)  Sometimes your arrogance overwhelms.  Those who conjecture (yes, we can happily use that term - those who cleave to absolutes find it self-incriminating, those who have open minds find it honest) the possibility of a multiverse know more than you (or I) will EVER now know about "matter and space and time and energy".  Those who so conjecture are not tacky philosophy board posters who think that throwing out ideas is a good way of undermining an 'opponents' case - regardless of what it says of ones own. You cite undigested phrases from poorly understood inconclusive critical works (like 'QM operators', 'boundary conditions') and feel you have made telling points.  You have only in fact indirectly referred to some text you once read - which offers no support to your pov, but is referred to solely as a destructive attempt.

(c)  I certainly agree that internal consistency is a necessary condition of any explanation - but there are many other conditions (there is a whole literature devoted to what makes a good explanation - best bet is that it is a cluster-concept, with a strong relativistic tendency).   As I never tire of pointing out, the world of Harry Potter is strongly internally consistent: maybe you should become a Potterist.
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zukiphile
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« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2007, 11:51:32 AM »

(b)  Sometimes your arrogance overwhelms.  Those who conjecture (yes, we can happily use that term - those who cleave to absolutes find it self-incriminating, those who have open minds find it honest) the possibility of a multiverse know more than you (or I) will EVER now know about "matter and space and time and energy".  Those who so conjecture are not tacky philosophy board posters who think that throwing out ideas is a good way of undermining an 'opponents' case - regardless of what it says of ones own. You cite undigested phrases from poorly understood inconclusive critical works (like 'QM operators', 'boundary conditions') and feel you have made telling points.  You have only in fact indirectly referred to some text you once read - which offers no support to your pov, but is referred to solely as a destructive attempt.

What a strange mishmash of half understood ideas you offer.
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Callum
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« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2007, 01:05:44 PM »

What a strange mishmash of half understood ideas you offer.

Yes, that is a summary of what I just said.  Thank you.
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IamMe
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« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2007, 02:19:15 PM »

(I have decideed that god is the answer to everything, therefore everything I look at proves that god was its source)

I'd like to add something: Sure God explains everything (except the lack of evidence for his own existence) and that is exactly why the explanation is wrong. It's too easy. It's lazy. It avoids the important questions by simply attributing all unexplained events to a magic entity that can do anything.

It is interesting that you find God (an explanation that includes evidence that you seem to ignore), wrong, but three breaths earlier you find infinite universes (an explanation we all agree has no evidence) perfectly valid.

I completely agree that possibilities that offer no evidence are inferior to possibilities that include evidence and this is why infinite universes is inferior to one universe.   It is also why a creator is a viable explanation.

What evidence? The apparent improbability of our universe is equally well explained by the existence of a creator or the existence of a large number or an infinite number of universes.

The evidence from historical and documents and literary analysis are the most glaring examples you ignore.

Not ignore. I have thought about them quite a bit.

Quote
You are correct that those who suggest an intelligent agent as a creator have  a easier explanation than materialists because any prospective explanation must be internally consistent with the overall premise and in your case postulating infinite universes is not consistent with what we know about matter and space and time and energy.  Because of this and until the boundary conditions are resolved you alternative is inferior.

Bla bla bla - I've heard this all before from you. How exactly are infinite universes internally inconsistent?

Also, we don't need an infinite number, just a large finite number to overcome the improbability (in fact we only need 1 in order for it to be possible).
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2007, 05:49:43 PM »

You are correct that those who suggest an intelligent agent as a creator have  a easier explanation than materialists because any prospective explanation must be internally consistent with the overall premise and in your case postulating infinite universes is not consistent with what we know about matter and space and time and energy.  Because of this and until the boundary conditions are resolved you alternative is inferior.

Bla bla bla - I've heard this all before from you. How exactly are infinite universes internally inconsistent?

Also, we don't need an infinite number, just a large finite number to overcome the improbability (in fact we only need 1 in order for it to be possible).

I suggest you look into probability theory.  My explanations don't seem to do much for you.
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IamMe
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« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2007, 02:15:57 PM »

You are correct that those who suggest an intelligent agent as a creator have  a easier explanation than materialists because any prospective explanation must be internally consistent with the overall premise and in your case postulating infinite universes is not consistent with what we know about matter and space and time and energy.  Because of this and until the boundary conditions are resolved you alternative is inferior.

Bla bla bla - I've heard this all before from you. How exactly are infinite universes internally inconsistent?

Also, we don't need an infinite number, just a large finite number to overcome the improbability (in fact we only need 1 in order for it to be possible).

I suggest you look into probability theory.  My explanations don't seem to do much for you.

Meh. If you don't want to explain I don't see why I should bother.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2007, 10:04:03 AM »

You are correct that those who suggest an intelligent agent as a creator have  a easier explanation than materialists because any prospective explanation must be internally consistent with the overall premise and in your case postulating infinite universes is not consistent with what we know about matter and space and time and energy.  Because of this and until the boundary conditions are resolved you alternative is inferior.

Bla bla bla - I've heard this all before from you. How exactly are infinite universes internally inconsistent?

Also, we don't need an infinite number, just a large finite number to overcome the improbability (in fact we only need 1 in order for it to be possible).

I suggest you look into probability theory.  My explanations don't seem to do much for you.

I suggested that I could give you reading material and you rejected it. You have generally insisted on people giving their own account (and then you cut and paste uncited work frequently).

What game are you playing, RF? Roll Eyes
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IamMe
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« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2007, 12:59:35 PM »

You are correct that those who suggest an intelligent agent as a creator have  a easier explanation than materialists because any prospective explanation must be internally consistent with the overall premise and in your case postulating infinite universes is not consistent with what we know about matter and space and time and energy.  Because of this and until the boundary conditions are resolved you alternative is inferior.

Bla bla bla - I've heard this all before from you. How exactly are infinite universes internally inconsistent?

Also, we don't need an infinite number, just a large finite number to overcome the improbability (in fact we only need 1 in order for it to be possible).

I suggest you look into probability theory.  My explanations don't seem to do much for you.

I suggested that I could give you reading material and you rejected it. You have generally insisted on people giving their own account (and then you cut and paste uncited work frequently).

What game are you playing, RF? Roll Eyes

Indeed. He's supposed to be a scientist. he should be able to explain/understand basic probability (i.e. if P(E) > 0 then E is possible)
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell

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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2007, 04:04:04 PM »

You are correct that those who suggest an intelligent agent as a creator have  a easier explanation than materialists because any prospective explanation must be internally consistent with the overall premise and in your case postulating infinite universes is not consistent with what we know about matter and space and time and energy.  Because of this and until the boundary conditions are resolved you alternative is inferior.

Bla bla bla - I've heard this all before from you. How exactly are infinite universes internally inconsistent?

Also, we don't need an infinite number, just a large finite number to overcome the improbability (in fact we only need 1 in order for it to be possible).

I suggest you look into probability theory.  My explanations don't seem to do much for you.

I suggested that I could give you reading material and you rejected it. You have generally insisted on people giving their own account (and then you cut and paste uncited work frequently).

What game are you playing, RF? Roll Eyes
 

IamMe complained (admitted actually) that he has heard my explanations before and implied that he was not enamored by them.  I suggested he take up some outside research in that case.
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illy
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« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2007, 04:10:50 PM »

You are correct that those who suggest an intelligent agent as a creator have  a easier explanation than materialists because any prospective explanation must be internally consistent with the overall premise and in your case postulating infinite universes is not consistent with what we know about matter and space and time and energy.  Because of this and until the boundary conditions are resolved you alternative is inferior.

Bla bla bla - I've heard this all before from you. How exactly are infinite universes internally inconsistent?

Also, we don't need an infinite number, just a large finite number to overcome the improbability (in fact we only need 1 in order for it to be possible).

I suggest you look into probability theory.  My explanations don't seem to do much for you.

I suggested that I could give you reading material and you rejected it. You have generally insisted on people giving their own account (and then you cut and paste uncited work frequently).

What game are you playing, RF? Roll Eyes

Indeed. He's supposed to be a scientist. he should be able to explain/understand basic probability (i.e. if P(E) > 0 then E is possible)

And also state the confidence interval. I have seen very little concerning a confidence interval for all of this.
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Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2007, 07:22:10 PM »


Indeed. He's supposed to be a scientist. he should be able to explain/understand basic probability (i.e. if P(E) > 0 then E is possible)

IamMe I walked you through basic probability several months ago.  When evaluating the ability and reasonableness for chance or constrained chance processes to explain an event, one compares the probability against the number of opportunities for chance to act to derive the overall probability.  If this overall probability is less than a threshold, then we can reasonably infer that some other process or mode accounts for the event.  Take for example the observation that 50 coins are laying on a table all heads up.  The unreasonable and irrational person might say that since it is possible that chance could have accounted for the event that person will choose to believe that pure chance does account for the event.  However the reasoned person will note that the odds of all heads is 2^50 and even if someone were to somehow flip the coins once every 5 seconds for about 150 million years the odds will still be just about even that all heads would come up one or more times.  This reasoned person will infer that chance cannot account for this event and someone must have intentionally placed the coins heads up.

And also state the confidence interval. I have seen very little concerning a confidence interval for all of this.

Confidence Intervals apply to statistical analysis of empirical data sets.  Perhaps you can explain how confidence intervals apply to pure probability and permutation examples such as these chance hypotheses for chemic generation of life from non-life.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2007, 08:41:02 PM »

RF, you have tried to sell ID for years and have been rebutted and refuted. You are a broken record.  You seem to have taken a page out of Dembski's M.O. and ignore the troublesome parts to your hypothesis and harp on the gaps in evolutionary theory.

BTW, have you proven that the pathways are impossible?  Or do you simply use the argument from Personal Incredulity still?
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« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2007, 05:18:15 AM »

RF, you have tried to sell ID for years and have been rebutted and refuted. You are a broken record.

The ID premise has not been properly (according to rules of the scientific method) rebutted or refuted.  You offer nothing whatsoever to falsify it or to demonstrate that the premise is not properly formed or supported.

Quote
  You seem to have taken a page out of Dembski's M.O. and ignore the troublesome parts to your hypothesis and harp on the gaps in evolutionary theory.

You have yet to demonstrate any valid "troublesome parts".  I assume that troublesome would refer to some sort of incongruence.

Quote
BTW, have you proven that the pathways are impossible?  Or do you simply use the argument from Personal Incredulity still?

Given our most recent understanding of how biochemical processes work, probability theory, information theory and thermodynamic theory collectively provides the basis to show why the materialistic processes of necessity and chance are insufficient to account for these presumed evolutionary pathways.  Your difficulty and the difficulty of those who cling to materialism is that you hold out hope that life overcame dumb luck, no matter how slim the odds and despite the evidence to the contrary.
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IamMe
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« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2007, 08:45:17 AM »


Indeed. He's supposed to be a scientist. he should be able to explain/understand basic probability (i.e. if P(E) > 0 then E is possible)

IamMe I walked you through basic probability several months ago.  When evaluating the ability and reasonableness for chance or constrained chance processes to explain an event, one compares the probability against the number of opportunities for chance to act to derive the overall probability.  If this overall probability is less than a threshold, then we can reasonably infer that some other process or mode accounts for the event.  Take for example the observation that 50 coins are laying on a table all heads up.  The unreasonable and irrational person might say that since it is possible that chance could have accounted for the event that person will choose to believe that pure chance does account for the event.  However the reasoned person will note that the odds of all heads is 2^50 and even if someone were to somehow flip the coins once every 5 seconds for about 150 million years the odds will still be just about even that all heads would come up one or more times.  This reasoned person will infer that chance cannot account for this event and someone must have intentionally placed the coins heads up.

I understand that. In the coins example we're talking about the probability of the event happening within our universe. Other universes are not relevant.

With life, we are talking about the probability of life coming about in any universe. Therefore, any other universes that might exist are also in play and add to the probabilistic resources. And since even you would not be so arrogant as to claim that you know exactly what exists outside our own universe you must concede that you have no idea what probabilstic resources are in play.

Also, you have created a false dichotomy between blind chance and design. The process that created the universe may have been partly or wholly deterministic without a god being involved.
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell

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illy
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illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing


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« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2007, 09:32:24 AM »

Confidence Intervals apply to statistical analysis of empirical data sets.  Perhaps you can explain how confidence intervals apply to pure probability and permutation examples such as these chance hypotheses for chemic generation of life from non-life.


Perhaps you are right, my study of statistics has mostly focused on imperial data.

You'll understand I'm skeptical though, when constant reference is made to probability and the math behind it is not presented.
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening
Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him
Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him
Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it -
Rugged Man - Give it Up
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