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Author Topic: Morality Exists; In a world with no Creator God what is its source?  (Read 2879 times)
daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #75 on: January 09, 2008, 10:55:11 AM »

Blader, stop trying to make every thread about me, and your vile spewing hatred of your existence.

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« Reply #76 on: January 09, 2008, 11:18:31 AM »

I think maybe I should add that the influence of our intersubjective knowledge/beliefs/desires - call it culture, I suppose - can be quite deep in defining the norms of behaviour (aka morality).   So whether 'morality' is wholely attributable to instinct is subject to discussion. I think it is unlikely.  This view has a certain support from the differences in 'morality' between cultures and subcultures, as well as the underlying similarities.  (Note I am avoiding any reference to religions here - the point is far more general than individual strands of cultural influence - although obviously some strands are more dominant in certain cultures)
Isn't that the same as saying it is based on our experiences? In other words, learned?
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Baldar
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« Reply #77 on: January 09, 2008, 11:20:38 AM »

I guess the boy is giving up on attempting to show us his reasoning that somehow butterflies make moral decisions.  So his retreat is now going to point 2.  First it was claiming "ad hom", then when he paints himself in the corner and cannot answer the question, its "don't talk about me".

Sorry kid, its not about you, its your bigotry and your incredibly limited reasoning when attempting to attack other people's belief system.

Again, care to explain in detail how a butterfly makes moral decisions?  Or are you going to claim its all about you?
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #78 on: January 09, 2008, 11:50:14 AM »

I think maybe I should add that the influence of our intersubjective knowledge/beliefs/desires - call it culture, I suppose - can be quite deep in defining the norms of behaviour (aka morality).   So whether 'morality' is wholely attributable to instinct is subject to discussion. I think it is unlikely.  This view has a certain support from the differences in 'morality' between cultures and subcultures, as well as the underlying similarities.  (Note I am avoiding any reference to religions here - the point is far more general than individual strands of cultural influence - although obviously some strands are more dominant in certain cultures)
Isn't that the same as saying it is based on our experiences? In other words, learned?
It's awfully difficult to separate all our experiences, evolution, culture, etc. from a distinct rational process.

The irony is that this ability that separates us from other animals is one that not only allows us to make Moral decisions, but Immoral ones.  The general propensity is towards more moral, but that is a hard sell, since the baseline is unclear.  Without comparing ourselves to animals we have no true baseline (since even our own human history would then be in a vacuum: are we more moral today than 1000 years ago?)

Certainly our actions rule out much obvious gain in morality except in isolated pockets of cultures (that is, crimes against humanity still exist, but you can find moral actions in any culture based on their view of morality.

Even if we take morals as a distinctly linguistic/cognitive/rational process based on reason, it is always in a context of the social group.  If morals are strictly "instinctual" (or "god given"), perhaps we only have the capacity to describe our actions, rather than decide.

Perhaps we only reason in order to "apologize" for our behavior; behavior that we would do anyway, despite the reasoning. That is, the difference humans have over other animals is we get to express a running commentary on what we do, though it hardly changes what we do.

Different people will have different reasons for why they are moral: they will frame it in certain langauge, but the truth may be that the reasons are innate, and we simply describe the feeling we have and express it as a desirable quality (since, after all, we would prefer to describe our qualities as desirable).

Even people who are generally considered Immoral explain their actions as moral; and in their paradigm it makes sense.

Hitler was factually wrong about the danger of Jews, but if he were right about the threat Jews faced, he would have been hailed a hero and a Moral Being. As Moses and Joshua are considered (if you accept that they were factually right about the threat).

I am on the verge of calling Morality a product of nothing but evolution (and instinct), but am uncomfortable since it brushes up against Determinism, which, as I have said, I hate the idea, but have seen no good argument against it.



Science has shown that moral behavior can be explained through evolution, and I would also argue that this explains the marginal gains in global moral values, since we are only generally on a path towards some other baseline, though we don't know what it is.  I see no way of separating morals from evolution and our intrinsic nature, and the ability to reason doesn't seem to increase moral actions in a person, it only seems to be able to explain ones actions more convincingly.


edit: A thought. It's hard to think of any distinctly Moral act that is objectively Moral.  All Good is subjective, there doesn't seem to be any act that is moral on its own.  In fact, it seems that we all do generally immoral things, but we can opt out (whether FW or Determined) and it becomes Good.

It hinges on our reasoning (whether before or after) the gain of an action.

Generally, people consider the torturing of children as Immoral (many Xians don't, since many feel that some babies go to Hell, but lets consider them an anomaly!). However, the REASON it is immoral is because there is no gain.  To torture an adult MAY be moral if that adult has information that needs to be obtained (so the argument goes.) It is still an immoral act to torture, but it is MORE immoral to hide information that may result in great harm.  (Of course, if you are the American POW who has knowledge, you would consider the fire bombing of Dresden a good thing and thus the torture immoral since it is trying to stop a Good.)

I'm taking quite a Utilitarian view, but I still think it is less calculated. It seems more instinctual and then we tally up afterwards and explain the Good that came out of the event.  Had Germany won, we would still be tallying up all the Good that had happened and explained it in moral terms (not without caveats, I'm sure.  For example, we don't still praise the Spanish for eradicating the Native People of S.A., though, they believed they were ridding the world of evil people who were an affront to God.  Likewise, had Germany killed off the Jews to the same level, we would still think it horrible, though, this - I believe - has to do with the natural instinct: Once the threat is reduced to a managable amount, we can afford the moderate amount of Natural morality imbued within us by evolution. Otherwise a threat is a threat and must be eradicated.)

Of course, my ability to sit back and describe it as a Natural process creates a difficult position, since if it is innate, how can I reason about it as if it is separate from myself.  I would simply explain it as my rationalizing of it, though it will have no affect on how I act. Or anyone else.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 12:16:30 PM by daedalus 2.0 » Logged

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« Reply #79 on: January 09, 2008, 12:25:05 PM »

Hiter would applaud you your utilitarian view, he did the same thing you are, using pretty much the same logic.  Good going barney...

Now have you figured out yet, how to explain the butterflies are creatures that make moral decisons?

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Of course, my ability to sit back and describe it as a Natural process creates a difficult position, since if it is innate, how can I reason about it as if it is separate from myself.


You have just described why religion can exist while still being difficult to explain.  Now lets see if you understand your own words.  laugh laugh laugh Grin
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Callum
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« Reply #80 on: January 09, 2008, 01:07:54 PM »

I think maybe I should add that the influence of our intersubjective knowledge/beliefs/desires - call it culture, I suppose - can be quite deep in defining the norms of behaviour (aka morality).   So whether 'morality' is wholely attributable to instinct is subject to discussion. I think it is unlikely.  This view has a certain support from the differences in 'morality' between cultures and subcultures, as well as the underlying similarities.  (Note I am avoiding any reference to religions here - the point is far more general than individual strands of cultural influence - although obviously some strands are more dominant in certain cultures)
Isn't that the same as saying it is based on our experiences? In other words, learned?

Nope.  I'm not for all-or-nothing soundbites.   Instinct plays a part, development another, ongoing cultural adaption another.  Some people still believe in good old-fashioned communism, others have adapted; some think it was right to you-know-what in 2003, others have changed their views on the 'morality' of it.   Some think its a good idea to let people starve because they resent their views, others see the effedcts and change their minds etc etc.   One thing for sure, morality is not stable.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 01:14:57 PM by Callum » Logged
daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #81 on: January 09, 2008, 01:23:43 PM »

Not only unstable, but it seems to be a vicitm of a kind of Post hoc ergo procter hoc reasoning.
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« Reply #82 on: January 09, 2008, 02:46:58 PM »

Oh look barney is trying to use google again.  Sigh.  And another one bites the dust.

As I stated, Hitler would applaud barney's utilitarian view (or did barney feel hitler was not utilitarian?).
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #83 on: January 09, 2008, 10:04:23 PM »

Some think its a good idea to let people starve because they resent their views, others see the effedcts and change their minds etc etc.   One thing for sure, morality is not stable.


I want to return to this. I see it as a great opportunity where we may differ, or where we may agree through different routes.

Let me posit that each individual is Determined. That, yes, some people may change their views on the morality of an act but others may not - but that is all based on their make-up and not Reason (again, I know I am playing a dangerous game here - but bear with me).

In a nut shell: Are we all acting on instinct? That morals are not a guide, but a description. That is, morals are a description just as Newtonian physics: we watch events play out and then run commentary. And that commentary never really affects the actions, just as describing a planets orbit would change the trajectory.  Especially on a global scale, generation after generation.

The evidence I would offer is that all morals are subjective. Take the seemingly objective one: Thou Shalt Not Torture Babies.

However, there is a plausible scenario in which a terrorist knows were the bomb is, but you only have him baby in custody and him on video phone (okay, I'm stretching - but bear with me).  The only way to get him to talk is to torture the baby.

Or, for example, killing the entire population of South American natives is considered Immoral. I agree, but then, I may just be wired to be moral.  During their time, however, the Spanish simply acted in what they felt was appropriate.  They saw the natives as a distinct threat, and a threat needs to be managed.

And for all these events, we never get less massacres.

That is, if morals can be determined and reasoned then one would expect a gradual increase in moral behavior, and decrease in immoral behavior. However, the 19th and 20th Centuries have been marked by grand displays of immorality. (balanced by what we consider moral or heroic acts - but this is what I mean).

The Allies in WWII were killing and committing as many immoral acts as the Axis, maybe not in total weight, but in a Kantian sense. (We didn't kill our Japanese prisoners, but it is still immoral to imprison them).

Since we won, we get to declare what was moral or immoral. And what better thing to do than declare our opponents behavior Immoral, and some of ours Immoral so that we can justify the Demonization of anyone who challenges us.

Even though the Nazi purge of Jews is held up as an immoral atrocity, we see it happen before our eyes: Serbs-Croats, Darfur, etc.  Not systemized, true, but does that parsing make it all that different? (Of course, there is no threat to us. One could even imagine that if Hitler had ONLY killed the Jews in Germany that the world may not have stepped in.  It was only when he crossed borders).

I see "Moral" to mean: it is no threat to me and my progeny, whereas "immoral" means it threatens me and my offspring.  We can use floral language to describe it and explain WHY, but there seems to be no more to morals other than these basic emotions that are hard-wired through evolution and supported by culture, etc.
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« Reply #84 on: January 10, 2008, 05:23:43 AM »

I see "Moral" to mean: it is no threat to me and my progeny, whereas "immoral" means it threatens me and my offspring.  We can use floral language to describe it and explain WHY, but there seems to be no more to morals other than these basic emotions that are hard-wired through evolution and supported by culture, etc.
Is it only when you and yours are threatened?  Does your morality ignore everyone else?  I only ask because mine does not.  Is this your atheism?  Guess mine might by my agnosticism then.  Couldn't ask for a better demonstration of the difference between atheism and agnosticism.  Despite your protestation that both groups are the same.  We know better.
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« Reply #85 on: January 10, 2008, 06:07:03 AM »

Neither Asafa Powell nor I can run 100 metres faster than 9 seconds - that doesn't make us equal.

Depends on the characteristic you are comparing. As human beings deserving basic human rights, I would say you are both equal.

Precisely.   When comparing two rival hypotheses, you need to consider more than just one aspect.  Thus, if you accept this, your reply as follows is insufficient...

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So if we take your line then ALL conjectures and all postulates however bizarre must be taken as 'equal'.

No we do not. Barring definitive proof......we need only to assess the postulates that have been given credence throughout our history and have withstood the tests of time.

... since just having tradition on its side does not necessarily make a hypothesis 'good'.   The 'test of time' is I think you must agree a pretty useless one.  At the point when they were overthrown, the geocentric universe, the theory of humours and young earth had all 'stood the test of time'.

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If you know of any other postulates besides the "materialistic" one Barney eludes to and the "mythological" one I elude to that meet the criteria.....then let's see it.

Which criteria?   Your contribution to the 'How do we account for things' thread would be interesting.  As for another hypothesis, I can invent one that says that 'life' is part of the essence of all matter and that under certain conditions it will emerge.... OK?  It may not have a timestamp, but seems to meet your general view.

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I agree entirely that without life - in fact without 'moral beings' - there is no such thing as morality.

So I guess until definitive proof of our origin arises, the thought that morality has materialistic roots has as much weight as God providing it.....that is, the two postulates given credence by our history.
[/quote]

I guess not.  Until Newton stood on the shoulders of giants and hypothesized about gravity, the origin of things falling to Earth was that 'God made it happen'.  The 'mythological' hypothesis lacks the weight (sorry, no pun intended) of Newton's views.

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BTW how's Craig Ventner getting along?

I don't know....how is a geneticists related to the topic?

Its just that a month or so back, according to the news media this side of the pond, Ventner has announced that he will create life in the laboratory, 'soon'. 

Oops just checked google..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Venter
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/oct/06/genetics

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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #86 on: January 10, 2008, 07:47:19 AM »

I see "Moral" to mean: it is no threat to me and my progeny, whereas "immoral" means it threatens me and my offspring.  We can use floral language to describe it and explain WHY, but there seems to be no more to morals other than these basic emotions that are hard-wired through evolution and supported by culture, etc.
Is it only when you and yours are threatened?  Does your morality ignore everyone else?  I only ask because mine does not.  Is this your atheism?  Guess mine might by my agnosticism then.  Couldn't ask for a better demonstration of the difference between atheism and agnosticism.  Despite your protestation that both groups are the same.  We know better.
I'm actually trying to flesh out the limits of Determinism and some thoughts. I don't know if I believe this as true, I am trying to form it into something to see it it is believable.

But feel free to jump to conclusions. I suppose I deserve it, after having been the "angry athiest" to so many people. Wink
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« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2008, 08:13:43 AM »

Not angry atheist, try stupid.  Hey you lit the fuse, don't get all passive aggressive about it now.

Angry atheists are very good at putting together "fleshed out" arguments.

The fact is yours is a very nihilistic view in which it certainly is "all about you".  Recall how I was searching for the truth and a religion I would like to adhere to and you called it cowardice.  Are you now attempting the same thing you call others cowards for? 

Atheism, unlike barney's characterization, need not be self centered or nihilistic.  But atheists themselves falter when it comes to explaining how self sacrifice, or sacrifice for others, or putting others above themselves, is justified from an atheistic standpoint.  I do not, for example, recall the charitable works of atheist hospitals among the poorest of the poor, or atheist organizations (dare we say monastaries) in which lives are dedicated to helping others.

So in world of atheists, given what we have seen atheists accomplish, does morality, ie the morality of self sacrifice for others really have a place?

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« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2008, 08:31:05 AM »

Wow daebalus, how does it feel to have your own personal stalker.  I the last day and a half I haven't seen many of your posts go by without your stalker buddy popping up to call you some names, boast about his life, and then attempt to bring up a point layered in personal attacks. 
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« Reply #89 on: January 10, 2008, 08:35:52 AM »

Barney posts a great deal when he flails in this forum Perrin, if you choose to say stupid things, and have bad logic, I am sure I can discourse with you too.  But then you don't say much.  Kind of like an audience member, very passive eh?

As far as boasting, often people assume accomplishments made known is boasting, but those people usually have no accomplishments to boast of  Cry.  I am sure however that you are still young, perhaps one day you will accomplish something and someone else will have the opportunity to accuse you of boasting.  Wink
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