IAP Political Forum
December 01, 2008, 11:43:50 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Default theme has been changed, and everyone reset due to some problems with posts disappearing after submitting.
 
   Home   Blog Forum   Help Search Chat Login Register  
Digg This!
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Goodby Selfish Gene  (Read 1526 times)
Reasoned Faith
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +146/-165
Posts: 893


View Profile
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2007, 04:51:12 PM »


It helps a great deal because critics (even illogical one) like barney don't go after the substance of my argument since they can't, instead they claim that it is not a scientific premise since it is a claim for a creator.  Well, here Dawkins acknowledges that even a creator is a scientific hypothesis.  Kind of takes the wind out of the sails of even a fallacious critique.

Yes, it should be treated as a scientific hypothesis. It should be subjected to the same standards as a scientific hypothesis and under those standards it fails. It fails to meet the criterion of falsifiability for one thing as well as failing to meet the criterion of being based on repeatable testable observation.

As far as I know, only Dawkins has proposed it as a hypothesis and then didn't follow up with any experiments or tests.  If it fails it must be Dawkins who has failed.  I don't know of anyone else who has proposed this hypothesis.  So since Dawkins affirms it is a valid scientific hypothesis it stands to reason that the ID premise also should be accepted by these followers of Dawkins who improperly claim it is equivalent to a creator hypothesis.  ID does offer a falsifiable premise and ID does offer observable evidence, tests, and predictions.

This is priceless. You are now saying that because Dawkins was unable to test your untestable, unfalsifiable conjecture then it must be true.

No, read my words again.  Because Dawkins has not offered any test so it is indetermined.  There is a difference between a hypothesis that is valid from a scientific standpoint and one that has been shown to be likely true.
Logged
Reasoned Faith
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +146/-165
Posts: 893


View Profile
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2007, 05:35:40 PM »

Your "markers for design" are fallacies.

How so?  They are commonly present in things known to be designed and have never been shown to be derived by any materialistic mechanism.

Quote
But let me get this straight: you are saying that the biological mechanisms are design-like in a way machines are. That we are robots?

Our bodies in a sense are biological robots, a vessel. Do you disagree?

I hope everyone sees how disingenuous RF is. When he says ID is observable and repeateble he slips into the human understanding of design,

Is there more than one understanding of design?

Quote
but then, when he wants to talk about "Creation" he equivicates and calls it the same principle, or idea.

Design and Creation are synonyms. 

Quote
He will say it is "intelligence" as if intelligence can be placed into any vessel (or, in the case of his Deusigner, a non-vessel).

We ONLY know of intelligence as applied to a material brain and known process.

I don't need any other.  Design is showing itself capable of increasing biological information.  Design is capable of generating new form and function in organisms that lacked that form or function.  Design is capable of generating self replicating biopolymers from raw materials.

Meanwhile you have zero materialistic processes capable of deriving these markers.

Quote
Not to mention, he again and again ONLY appeals to the gaps.

I point to known markers for design and known design processes.  You are making an appeal for more time .  You are claiming ignorance.  You are claiming there are gaps.
Logged
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2007, 09:28:41 PM »


How so?  They are commonly present in things known to be designed and have never been shown to be derived by any materialistic mechanism.

Um, how about plants and animals?
Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Reasoned Faith
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +146/-165
Posts: 893


View Profile
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2007, 03:39:42 PM »


How so?  They are commonly present in things known to be designed and have never been shown to be derived by any materialistic mechanism.

Um, how about plants and animals?

The origination of plants and animals has not been determined to be derived by materialistic mechanisms.
Logged
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2007, 09:02:56 AM »

Everything has had its origin from natural processes until you can provide proof that some other process exists.  Its the only thing that makes sense, not your Cartoon Universe.

Good luck showing magic, or supernaturalism as you call it, exists!
Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
IamMe
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +39/-126
Posts: 1,271



View Profile
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2007, 01:07:25 PM »


It helps a great deal because critics (even illogical one) like barney don't go after the substance of my argument since they can't, instead they claim that it is not a scientific premise since it is a claim for a creator.  Well, here Dawkins acknowledges that even a creator is a scientific hypothesis.  Kind of takes the wind out of the sails of even a fallacious critique.

Yes, it should be treated as a scientific hypothesis. It should be subjected to the same standards as a scientific hypothesis and under those standards it fails. It fails to meet the criterion of falsifiability for one thing as well as failing to meet the criterion of being based on repeatable testable observation.

As far as I know, only Dawkins has proposed it as a hypothesis and then didn't follow up with any experiments or tests.  If it fails it must be Dawkins who has failed.  I don't know of anyone else who has proposed this hypothesis.  So since Dawkins affirms it is a valid scientific hypothesis it stands to reason that the ID premise also should be accepted by these followers of Dawkins who improperly claim it is equivalent to a creator hypothesis.  ID does offer a falsifiable premise and ID does offer observable evidence, tests, and predictions.

This is priceless. You are now saying that because Dawkins was unable to test your untestable, unfalsifiable conjecture then it must be true.

No, read my words again.  Because Dawkins has not offered any test so it is indetermined.  There is a difference between a hypothesis that is valid from a scientific standpoint and one that has been shown to be likely true.

That is because no test is possible. There is no litmus test for the presence of God. There is no thing that could exist that we can say definitely wasn't made by God. We don't know how a universe created by God would differ from one that was not. God is an untestable unfalsifiable conjecture.

Unless you have a test we can perform. I think I have a microscope in my house somewhere if that helps Smiley
Logged

\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell

If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
Reasoned Faith
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +146/-165
Posts: 893


View Profile
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2007, 05:22:36 PM »

Everything has had its origin from natural processes until you can provide proof that some other process exists.  Its the only thing that makes sense, not your Cartoon Universe.

Good luck showing magic, or supernaturalism as you call it, exists!


When you begin with a prior commitment to the absurdly unsupportable notion of materialism, statements like yours are expected.  There are natural causes and there is design.  Design explains the observable world much better because when we look at the natural world we find elements of design throughout it.  We also observe design, in action, building the same kinds of elements over and over again.
Logged
Reasoned Faith
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +146/-165
Posts: 893


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2007, 05:55:06 PM »


No, read my words again.  Because Dawkins has not offered any test so it is indetermined.  There is a difference between a hypothesis that is valid from a scientific standpoint and one that has been shown to be likely true.

That is because no test is possible. There is no litmus test for the presence of God.

I'm not certain this is true.  No test has been offered but should we reject it on those grounds?  If so then we should reject materialism also since no test for the idea that the universe created itself has been offered.

Quote
We don't know how a universe created by God would differ from one that was not.


A designed universe should appear to be designed and should contain signs of design throughout it.  Our universe appears to be designed and contains clear markers of design that only design can explain.  An undesigned universe should appear random and incoherent and should not contain markers that material processes don't generate.

Quote
God is an untestable unfalsifiable conjecture.

By the same token, Materialism is an untestable and falsified conjecture.   It fails on the basis that material processes don't generate the observed markers for design we find in the natural world.  Materialism holds on because of the prior commitment materialist have (see barney above) despite the utter failure to deliver on their grand promises to explain this world.  As we learn more about it it is becoming more clear that material processes can't explain the world, not the other way around.
Logged
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2007, 07:05:05 PM »

RF, name ONE thing your Deusigner has positively created - that you can prove to a scientific level.

As support for Materialism, we will tell you the billions of things that material mechanisms are responsible for - proven to be responsible for, such as mountain building, lightning, planets orbits, electricity, magnetism, gravity, waves, light, heat, sound, texture, evolution, tides, many psychoses, cancer, many rashes and bruises, heart attacks, anurisms, atheletes foot, dust mites, allergies, weak and strong nuclear forces, nuclear bombs, nuclear energy, automatic door closers, fire extinguishers, cars AND buses, planes, trains and Vespa scooters, windsurfers, submarines, sofas, books, intelligence, caps, speakers, extension cords, bamboo flooring, videos and cds, dvds, internet, rivers, volcanoes, streams, trees, bunnies, whales, paper, brains, arteries, hearts and knees, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, siltation, cirques, morains, swales, valleys, knolls, crystals, uranium, lead, copper, and iron, rubber, chocolate, pollen, pears and bears, chalk, marble, quartz, etc....

Need I go on?  All of these things, you will agree, are dependent upon material and material mechanisms.

Now, name ONE thing that you can show that your Deusigner did - actually show - and not simply assert.

Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Reasoned Faith
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +146/-165
Posts: 893


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2007, 05:23:04 PM »

RF, name ONE thing your Deusigner has positively created - that you can prove to a scientific level.

As support for Materialism, we will tell you the billions of things that material mechanisms are responsible for - proven to be responsible for, such as mountain building, lightning, planets orbits, electricity, magnetism, gravity, waves, light, heat, sound, texture, evolution, tides, many psychoses, cancer, many rashes and bruises, heart attacks, anurisms, atheletes foot, dust mites, allergies, weak and strong nuclear forces, nuclear bombs, nuclear energy, automatic door closers, fire extinguishers, cars AND buses, planes, trains and Vespa scooters, windsurfers, submarines, sofas, books, intelligence, caps, speakers, extension cords, bamboo flooring, videos and cds, dvds, internet, rivers, volcanoes, streams, trees, bunnies, whales, paper, brains, arteries, hearts and knees, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, siltation, cirques, morains, swales, valleys, knolls, crystals, uranium, lead, copper, and iron, rubber, chocolate, pollen, pears and bears, chalk, marble, quartz, etc....

Need I go on?  All of these things, you will agree, are dependent upon material and material mechanisms.

Now, name ONE thing that you can show that your Deusigner did - actually show - and not simply assert.

Just as you can provide an endless list of things that have a known material cause, I too can provide an endless list of things that have a known design cause.  Like cars, and trains, and electrical generators, etc.  If you claim that your list confirms that materialism accounts for this universe, life in this universe and diversity of life in this universe.  Then you also have to say that my list confirms that design accounts for the same. 

The reality is that you are making a category error and a special pleading.  The existence of material causes and things in this universe that have material causes does nothing to build your case for materialism because none of the modes of explanation can account for the universe or life in it or diversity of life. 

On the other hand design does account for the universe and life in it and diversity of life because we know from experience that with sufficient knowledge design can generate the plans and conditions needed to cause these events.  Design has increased the diversity of biological organisms.  Design has generated self-replicating biopolymers.  Design can fine tune systems to create complex interrelationships for specific purposes.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 07:00:08 PM by Reasoned Faith » Logged
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2007, 06:06:31 PM »

RF, cars were designed by humans - material entities - and cars are based on a myriad of material properties.

You appeal now to the BB? The unknown?

Has it sunk through yet? Have you realized that you only have an Argument from Ignorance?

I am not asking you to name something that we don't know what caused it - I am challenging you and your God to name ONE thing that you can show "He" designed.

So far you have given me NOTHING.
Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Reasoned Faith
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +146/-165
Posts: 893


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2007, 07:12:47 PM »

RF, cars were designed by humans - material entities - and cars are based on a myriad of material properties.

You appeal now to the BB? The unknown?

Has it sunk through yet? Have you realized that you only have an Argument from Ignorance?

I am not asking you to name something that we don't know what caused it - I am challenging you and your God to name ONE thing that you can show "He" designed.

So far you have given me NOTHING.

You are begging the question, making a category error and a special pleading.  You know that historical singularities cannot be proven empiriacally.  We can only demonstrate the here and now.  You cannot demonstrate that materialism accounts for this universe, life in it or observed diversity of life.  Meanwhile, I don't know how to deductively prove to your there is a designer of life since the event is in the past.  So what?  This is meaningless, because it is historical and the evidence is lost, and out of reach to science.

I can demonstrate that design processes can increase biological information at rates far in excess of what is required to account for observed diversity.  I can demonstrate that design can geneerate self-replicating polymers.  Design is reverse engineering biological processes at record pace.

Meanwhile materialism is falling all over itself but has utterly failed to deliver on its grand narrative that it accounts for the diversity we observe.  Design accounts for it, materialism does not.   
Logged
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2007, 08:42:21 PM »

Still nothing, RF.  You are just asserting again without evidence.
Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Reasoned Faith
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +146/-165
Posts: 893


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2007, 05:00:25 AM »

Still nothing, RF.  You are just asserting again without evidence.

Barney your question is a fallacy.  Fallacies don't require and often don't have valid responses.
Logged
daedalus 2.0
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +69/-397
Posts: 1,145



View Profile
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2007, 10:44:33 AM »

Still nothing, RF.  You are just asserting again without evidence.

Barney your question is a fallacy.  Fallacies don't require and often don't have valid responses.

You have made hundreds of clims all based on your presuppositionalism. I am offering you a chance to show that there is something other than convoluted theistic reasoning behind it - like actual evidence.

For example, here is one thing that would convince me if your religion was true.

Let me pick a mountain - any old mountain - and you move it.  See how evidence works?  I predict the mountain won't move, but your religion claims it will.  (Of course you will appeal to it being metaphorical. Every time something can actually be tested you must appeal to some other "reason".)

Still waiting.
Logged

\\\\"SUCK IT, JESUS!\\\\" Kathy Griffin
\"Hitler burns Anne Frank for a day, and it\'s Evil.
God burns Anne Frank for eternity, and it\'s Just.\"Anon
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.4 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC
Joomla Bridge by JoomlaHacks.com
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.095 seconds with 27 queries.