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Author Topic: Goodby Selfish Gene  (Read 1524 times)
Reasoned Faith
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« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2007, 04:36:16 PM »

No, you have demonstrated that one specific kind of creationism based on arbitrarily defined 'markers' is falsifiable because we could find out the markers don't exist. There will always remain the 'God put those fossils there to test our faith' defense so no one can prove God doesn't exist.

Encoded deterministic information and artificial languages clearly exist and have only been found in things that are designed.  I do not make an appeal to God, I claim this is a telltale sign of intelligent design.

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Now since materialism (the idea that materialistic mechanisms account for this universe and everything in it) is truly untestable and unfalsifiable, are you prepared to agree that materialism is nonscientific?

Can you find an instance where I claimed that they do?

Very well then I will assume you claim materialism is not a scientific premise.  It follows that methodological materialism is an invalid presupposition and should be removed from scientific studies.

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But there is no way I can say that any of those things are out of reach of design simply because we know nothing about the designer (including, by the way, whether or not it exists) and therefore we know nothing about what it can or can't do.


Yes we can.  We know what design is because we design things and we observe design directly.  We should not presume design can accomplish anything, because we do not observe that.  We should only assign to design what we reasonably suspect it can do.


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The designer doesn't have to be 'all powerful' - we do not know anything about the designer. We do not know the designers capabilities. Since we are limited by the scientific method to what we know or can discover ID will remain conjecture until we discover an entity capable of designing life. Have you found one?

Not yet, but we can be reasonably sure that given enough information, human designers can make life from non-life.  Do you doubt this?

Science does not require us to identify the designer, all that is required is to show that design can accomplish what is claimed.

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Unlike imaginary designers, about whom we can assert whatever we want, material explanations must be shown to be capable of what we claim them to be capable of. That's why we cannot make blanket assertions about them.

Nonsense.  As I said above. We can only attribute to design what we observe of design or can reasonably suggest design can do.

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You can repeat that accusation as much as you want, I have explained why design is not a scientific explanation. I did not just declare it to be so.

You have explained why you don't care for the design inference and nothing more.  Your justification was flawed because you extended ID to a mythical designer capable of anything.  ID does not make this claim.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2007, 04:44:22 PM »


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Can you find an instance where I claimed that they do?

Very well then I will assume you claim materialism is not a scientific premise.

RF, you are so damned disingenuous I hope there is a special place in your imaginary Hell for you.
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IamMe
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« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2007, 02:15:04 PM »

No, you have demonstrated that one specific kind of creationism based on arbitrarily defined 'markers' is falsifiable because we could find out the markers don't exist. There will always remain the 'God put those fossils there to test our faith' defense so no one can prove God doesn't exist.

Encoded deterministic information and artificial languages clearly exist and have only been found in things that are designed.  I do not make an appeal to God, I claim this is a telltale sign of intelligent design.

Yes, we have heard this one before. I would say that this is equivalent to saying: "Wow! That sunset looks exactly like this painting I saw. It must have been painted." Our designs mimic what we find in nature. We should not therefore be surprised when we find nature to look like our designs and we certainly should not infer that nature was designed on this basis.

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Now since materialism (the idea that materialistic mechanisms account for this universe and everything in it) is truly untestable and unfalsifiable, are you prepared to agree that materialism is nonscientific?

Can you find an instance where I claimed that they do?

Very well then I will assume you claim materialism is not a scientific premise.  It follows that methodological materialism is an invalid presupposition and should be removed from scientific studies.

No one presupposes materialism except the strawman scientists you have invented. Its just that arguments from design have shown themselves to be inherently unscientific.

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But there is no way I can say that any of those things are out of reach of design simply because we know nothing about the designer (including, by the way, whether or not it exists) and therefore we know nothing about what it can or can't do.


Yes we can.  We know what design is because we design things and we observe design directly.  We should not presume design can accomplish anything, because we do not observe that.  We should only assign to design what we reasonably suspect it can do.

And on what basis can we reasonably suspect anything, since we do not know the nature of the designer and what limitations there are on its capabilities?

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The designer doesn't have to be 'all powerful' - we do not know anything about the designer. We do not know the designers capabilities. Since we are limited by the scientific method to what we know or can discover ID will remain conjecture until we discover an entity capable of designing life. Have you found one?

Not yet, but we can be reasonably sure that given enough information, human designers can make life from non-life.  Do you doubt this?

No I do not doubt this at all.

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Science does not require us to identify the designer, all that is required is to show that design can accomplish what is claimed.

Then we have the problem of a nice eloquent design explanation and no designer to accomplish it. This is like me claiming evolution without anyone having discovered mutations.

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Unlike imaginary designers, about whom we can assert whatever we want, material explanations must be shown to be capable of what we claim them to be capable of. That's why we cannot make blanket assertions about them.

Nonsense.  As I said above. We can only attribute to design what we observe of design or can reasonably suggest design can do.

Then since we have not observed design designing life I can dismiss design?

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You can repeat that accusation as much as you want, I have explained why design is not a scientific explanation. I did not just declare it to be so.

You have explained why you don't care for the design inference and nothing more.  Your justification was flawed because you extended ID to a mythical designer capable of anything.  ID does not make this claim.

Nor did I, if you read what I said.
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daedalus 2.0
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« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2007, 06:07:22 PM »


And on what basis can we reasonably suspect anything, since we do not know the nature of the designer and what limitations there are on its capabilities?
This is an important point. A designer could have evolved and mimicked evolution perfectly.  In fact, what we see is humans doing this in labs - they mimic the Natural Processes.

However, the biggest problem is that it is still an Argument from Ignorance. It is simply A God of the Gaps hypothesis and nothing more.

This is why ID has dropped of the map publically, privately and in the sciences. It isn't science, produces nothing helpful or applicable, is not fallsifiable or even sound reasoning. It is Creationism with scientistic lingo.
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« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2007, 08:54:18 AM »

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Now since materialism (the idea that materialistic mechanisms account for this universe and everything in it) is truly untestable and unfalsifiable, are you prepared to agree that materialism is nonscientific?


Can you find an instance where I claimed that they do?

Very well then I will assume you claim materialism is not a scientific premise.  It follows that methodological materialism is an invalid presupposition and should be removed from scientific studies.

The term is methodological naturalism and removing it from scientific studies would be difficult since it is precisely how science operates. You seem to be the one that wants to inflate this discipline beyond its capabilities. Science does what it does. If you have a better method of testing potential mechanisms for observed phenomenon let's hear it.

Methodological naturalism seems like a perfectly adequate and reasonable approach to explaining the diversity of life on this planet and I find the compilation of evidence pretty compelling. Again, I'd like to hear an alternative that doesn't involve material processes.

If you find yourself in need of a Grand Theory of Everything that can explain everything without really explaining anything, stick to ID. You can't really go wrong.
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3.5 billion years from a puddle of goo
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